Questions from a New Tyranid Player : Lists and Strategy

[stormcrowfleet]

Greetings,



I'm a lurker now poster. Great site btw !



I have a twofold question : what to do against some specific list (more in terms of strategy than list building as I try not to list-tailor) and also : what to buy next for my tyranid army.



I am normally an Imperium Player. I have a big IG army (I just sold some, but I had over 6000 before counting 3 superheavy tank, 2 knights and a titan), some Blood Angels and Inquisition. I had 1000 pts of Tyranids for quite some time, and I played a couple of game last year with the past codex with it. With the new codex and some time on my hand I decided to upgrade my army. I did a game, and it was FUN. I want to play them more, and build more.



TLDR : I've been bitten by the bugs and want to play them more/have a bigger army.



Tonight I played against a Chaos Demon (mono-nurgle) army and won 12-9 in a maelstrom mission. I had this :



HQ

1x Tyranid Prime (Lashwhip, Bonesword, Norns Crown, Flesh Hook, Toxin Sacs) [Warlord Traits : Better synapse]

1x Deathleaper



ELITE

2x Zoanthrope

2x Hive Guard (/w Impaler Cannon)



TROOPS

3x Ripper Swarm (Deep Strike, Spinefists)

3x Ripper Swarm (Deep Strike, Spinefists)

3x Ripper Swarm (Deep Strike, Spinefists)

[Formation]

20x Hormagaunt (Toxin Sacs)

10x Hormagaunt

10x Hormagaunt

15x Termagant (5 devourer, 10 fleshborer)

15x Termagant (5 devourer, 10 fleshborer)

3x Warrior (3 Deathspitter)



HEAVY

1x Mawloc

1x Trygon Prime (Reaper of Obliterax, Toxinspike)

1x Carnifex (2x Twinlinked Devourer /w Brainleeches)

1x Biovore



What I liked :



- Ripper Swarm for objective grabbing are what made me win the game, srsly.

- Having TONS of body and troops is FUN. I was able to tarpit his Demon Prince for 4 turn straight because of that.

- Getting back some guys with the formation... and having them come through the Trygon Prime hole. People seems to be (please do not swear) about the Prime on a competitive level, but on a FUN level, it's awesome.

- Mawloc was kind of nice. He never hit the board, but he killed loads of plaguebearers that were in pack because of deepstrike.



What I didn't liked :



- Biovore. I know I had just one, but it was underwhelming at best. Maybe with the formation and everything, but I had my share of artillery and barrage with IG, I don't want to play this anymore.

- Zoanthrope. They did absolutly nothing. Even if there would have been more tanks (there was a walker), they still would have done nothing because they are too fragile and have no range on their attack. By the time I was at 18'' from the walker, he was already in a CC, so they did absolutly nothing.
They only served as Synapse, which a Malanthrope would have been better. 


QUESTION ONE : WHERE TO GO NOW



I plan on getting Malanthrope(s) to get rid of the Zoanthrope and Biovore and still having more synapse. I think that having a second carnifex wouldn't hurt: either with brainleeches again, or with crushing claws both. I would like to proxy and try a list with 2 of the new Dima and also trying the Barbed Hierodule. Also trying to get another pack of 30 termagants and finish my Tervigon. I'm also scratchbuilding a Exocrine. Is this thing any good ?



I play mostly for fun in a fun meta. Do you think my ideas are good etc. ? I don't have a big budget, and I don't want to be full competitive, so I don't need to go all shooty or Flyrant. I like the psychic powers, but I feel like the new psychic system is clunky and fails alot.



I don't want to add a bastion or whatever. Also I'm not sure I like the Harpy or the Hive Crone. Seems underwhelming, alot.
And I'm not a fan of the multiwound low-T like the Shrikes, Raveners or Warriors.


QUESTION TWO : WHAT TO DO



A) What to do against a Demon Prince. The nurgle type. With Iron Arm he has T8, 5W, an invul save (maybe IWND or FNP), and a damn Instant Death weapon with poison at better ini than most MC. I didn't know what to do against him in my game. Anything against him was instant death. I had no chance, not even the Prime. Instead of sacrifing my MC, I decided to tarpit him with everything I could throw at him. He killed like 40 gaunts + my Tyranid Prime (since he was in the squad he decided to charge and I could not get out). Problem is, I would prefer to kill him than just watch him kill my army. What do you guys do against higher init instant death ? I can't shoot him either since tyranids don't have ignore cover and he got a 2+ jink save (not even counting wings).



B) My next game is supposed to be against Black Templar. He got alot of flyers. I'm gonna try to talk him down in using them since I have nothing I can add to my list to defend myself. So he's probably gonna use alot of drop pods and 1-2 landraider. What strategy or model do you suggest against that ? I thought about bubbling everything together so that he has to sacrifice everything that comes within firing (and therefore charge) range of my forces. Also, I would try to put all the objective on his side so that his drop pod and guys inside are useless in terms of points.



Thanks everyone !

[creatureboi]

First off, welcome to the site. I've only been here since January myself but it's helped me loads over just that short time.

Glad you're having fun with the nids. In my view they can be one of the most fun armies to play with if you have the right mindset and aren't in a highly competitive WAAC meta. If you're playing for fun against fun opponents then there are very few nids that are bad (*cough pyrovore *cough). You've already seen that with the trygon prime, something which is generally accepted as overcosted and not much good on a competitive front.

Your list does look fun to use but it will have problems against vehicles. As you discovered, the zoanthrope is hardly the best answer to tanks. Unfortunately there is very little that is able to deal with high AV.

Most of the ideas you already have should help heading in that direction. Replacing zoanthrope and biovore with malanthrope will strengthen synapse and improve your survivability through shrouded, but won't have much of an impact on your damage output

If you are able to use FW in your areas then I certainly recommend picking up the hierodule. It's literally they only decent chance we have to take out heavy armour tanks at range. The Dima is a pretty cool model and will do damage if you can get it into combat.

Carnifex are pretty awesome too. Generally accepted best build is the double brain leech devourers but crushing claws virtually guarantee that you will wreck any vehicle on close combat. Two things tho. You only need one pair of crushing claws on a model- there's no additional benefit to having a second pair. You might as well just keep his second weapon set as the stock scything talons. He still gets the extra attack for a second pair of weapons. The benefits don't stack but he's already AP2 do the AP on the talons is worthless anyway. That saves you the points to buy the most important upgrade any CC unit in our dex MUST have- adrenal glands. This guy isn't going to be shooting and he's hunting tanks that can move much faster than him so you're going to want him to run every turn (except once he's in range to charge- can't run and charge for some reason). The re rolls to run and assault moves is vital to avoid a bad roll from running this guy's day.

The scratch built exocrine is a great idea. A really good MEQ/TEQ Hunter. Plus if you're making it yourself you save cash to spend on all the other goodies that you want- that list you go through won't come cheap!

I get that you don't like the flyers but they are probably our best units and they will really help against other flying units. You can probably get away without using them in a non-competitive environment but you will struggle against anything in the air without at least one as they are our only source of skyfire.

Moving to the specific situation of the nurgle demon prince, a flyrant would actually have helped here. It doesn't have to be shooty. There have been several threads recently discussing a combat equipped flyrant as being a good MC Hunter. Give him wings, lash whip/bone sword combo, adrenal glands and old adversary. ( I would say gives him reaper but you already have that on your trygon prime- it's better on a flyrant tho). That way he can catch his prey and stand a good chance off killing it when he gets there. I know you didn't want to list tailor but let's just look at that specific example you gave. A flyrant with lash whips is I8 he should need going first against most things. The best way to counter something with ID is to OF them first. That prince won't get his FNP against a six from a bone sword. It also avoids his high toughness and IWND- can't recover a wound if the model has been removed as a casualty.

If you don't want to go flyrant then check out this week's WD #40- the new toxicrene could be helpful here. Be careful tho you will need a lot of little bus to tarpit the price so toxi can catch him and you will still be vulnerable to a first strike ID.

Also don't dismiss warriors/shrikes so quickly. Yes they are vulnerable to double T ID but shrikes makes good MC hunters if you equip a few of them with lash whip/bone sword. They get a lot of attacks and can ID that prince. If you have enough of them he can't kill them all before you get a chance to swing back. Remember that you can choose which models die first by making sure your bone swords are always further away than your models that don't have them.

One last thing on the prince - tyranids do have ignore cover, just not much. The tyrannofex comes with acid spray, a torrent flamer weapon which will bypass his cover, and hive guard impailer cannons also ignore cover. The new toxicrene also gets a 12" large blast 2+ poison 6+ID shooting attack.

Looking forward to your next battle, bubble wrap is definitely the way to go against drop pods. Let him come in and kill a few gaunts. Plenty more where they came from. Stick to cover with venomthrope/ malanthrope support if possible and counter attack. The best thing about drop pod armies is that they have to come to you which cancels out our biggest weakness of getting across the board without getting cut down by shooting. You won't be able to do much against the landraiders unless you can get carnifex into combat with it

[Yautja]

Pretty much everyone is going to tell you to get a flying Hive Tyrant with 2 Devourers.

[killercroc]

QUESTION ONE : WHERE TO GO NOW



I plan on getting Malanthrope(s) to get rid of the Zoanthrope and Biovore and still having more synapse. I think that having a second carnifex wouldn't hurt: either with brainleeches again, or with crushing claws both. I would like to proxy and try a list with 2 of the new Dima and also trying the Barbed Hierodule. Also trying to get another pack of 30 termagants and finish my Tervigon. I'm also scratchbuilding a Exocrine. Is this thing any good ?


I play mostly for fun in a fun meta. Do you think my ideas are good etc. ? I don't have a big budget, and I don't want to be full competitive, so I don't need to go all shooty or Flyrant. I like the psychic powers, but I feel like the new psychic system is clunky and fails alot.


I don't want to add a bastion or whatever. Also I'm not sure I like the Harpy or the Hive Crone. Seems underwhelming, alot.
And I'm not a fan of the multiwound low-T like the Shrikes, Raveners or Warriors.

Read more: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/818033/quote/47967#ixzz3HozcHM72

I myself do not have a Malanthrope but looking at their rules there is no bad way to take them, I would suggest it. Big spore shrouded synapse creature? What every army needs, whether they are swarm or MC heavy.

I myself love carnifexs, but there is one thing I have realized with them and thats always give them guns. To be honest crushing claws are a waste since you're base S 9 with 3 attacks and D3 hammer of wrath attacks. Besides a land raider and 2 variants of leman russ every vehicle you fight is going to be rear armor 10 so the claws are just unnecessary over kill, and even against walked S9 means you just need a 3+. So I recommend one of 3 builds. Either giving them two sets of devourers so they can pummel infantry and light tanks, or giving them one set of devourers and a Barbed strangler to make a mess out of large guard blobs and Tyranid and Ork players, sometimes one large blast can do more damage than 6 shots. Or the final build is one set of devourers and a heavy venom cannon, this way you can take out light to medium tanks and walkers at range or close combat, does just a bit of everything which is nice.

Gaunts are your friends, try to have 30 for the unit and at least another 20 to spawn with. I like my gaunts to have Spinefists though most other people like the Devourers for more shots.

And Exocrine is amazing, I have two and these things are amazing especially when everyone I play against is chaos or marines, the plasma gun just melts through Rhinos and tactical squads like they aren't even there. Just stick him in terrain and let the gun beast do its job.

As for Low t units unless you run into 10+ missile launchers a game you dont have anything to fear. Even if your opponent does have missiles if he uses them against a warrior brood instead of a Carnifex he's doing something wrong, and that just gives your big bugs another turn to recognize his mistakes. I always take a unit of 3-5 warriors with deathspitters for some synapse and fire support to gaunts and genestealers. And in low point games Raveners are amazing, they rip though just about anything, if they aren't hit with a battle cannon they get into your opponents line turn 2 and he's stuck fighting them the rest of the game while the rest of your army closes in. And 5 Raveners with Rending claws is only 175 points, so it's not like they're a huge chunk of your army.

QUESTION TWO : WHAT TO DO



A) What to do against a Demon Prince. The nurgle type. With Iron Arm he has T8, 5W, an invul save (maybe IWND or FNP), and a damn Instant Death weapon with poison at better ini than most MC. I didn't know what to do against him in my game. Anything against him was instant death. I had no chance, not even the Prime. Instead of sacrifing my MC, I decided to tarpit him with everything I could throw at him. He killed like 40 gaunts + my Tyranid Prime (since he was in the squad he decided to charge and I could not get out). Problem is, I would prefer to kill him than just watch him kill my army. What do you guys do against higher init instant death ? I can't shoot him either since tyranids don't have ignore cover and he got a 2+ jink save (not even counting wings).



B) My next game is supposed to be against Black Templar. He got alot of flyers. I'm gonna try to talk him down in using them since I have nothing I can add to my list to defend myself. So he's probably gonna use alot of drop pods and 1-2 landraider. What strategy or model do you suggest against that ? I thought about bubbling everything together so that he has to sacrifice everything that comes within firing (and therefore charge) range of my forces. Also, I would try to put all the objective on his side so that his drop pod and guys inside are useless in terms of points.

Read more: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/818033/quote/47967#ixzz3Hp3Gdy00

A). remember that it wont always have Iron arm, also 5W, IWND, and FNP thats only what, a 1 out of 66 for each of those? So if your opponent happens to get those rewards every time I'd suggest watching his dice rolls a little more closely. Also the Instant death is a reward too so it wont be having that all the time. And the answer is simple, either hit him with a Dakkafex of a squad of poison hormagaunts.

If he doesnt have 5W and FNP (which he shouldnt be getting as often as you make it sound)
Look at it this way, Carnifex gets 12 shots, 6 should hit and 3 more with twin linked, 9 dice with a 3+ to wound should get you 6 wounds, of which he should fail 2 saves. Right there your 150 point MC just took away half of his wounds and what that daemon is 200+ points? Easy.

Toxic gaunts, say you charge in with 20 of them and he kills 5 that still leaves you 15 with 45 attacks, 22.5 hit and 11.25 wound, that should have him fail 3-4 wounds killing him. Again, a 160 point unit can easily wreck his face.

Daemon princes are not that scary, so unless you let it into your army to attack the weakest part, or your opponent just "happens" to roll exactly waht powers and buffs he needed they are really not that hard to kill.

Remember that Hive guard ignore cover. Also jink is only a 4+ save so I have no idea how he is getting a 2+ from it.

B). Well all you need is a Aegis wall and that should help, space marine flyers are AV 11 and 12, so quad TL auto cannons will be amazing. Besides that unless you take a Crone there isn't much other AA options you have. Just volume of shots.

Also if he takes a few flyers and 1-2 raiders he wont have that many points to go into the rest of his army, So you should be able to swarm over his infantry easily.

Get yourself some Venomthropes, they're cheap and super effective at keeping things alive.

Nov 1, 2014 12:49:25 GMT Yautja said:

Pretty much everyone is going to tell you to get a flying Hive Tyrant with 2 Devourers.

Not true, some people will tell him to get TWO flyrants

[yowster12]

DP of Nurgle has shrouded so it is a 2+ jink. And the Poison Gaunts are my idea of taking down anything with a toughness value. Either that or plain Gargoyles. His rewards will not always be the same. But with 3 mastery lvls getting Iron Arm is not that bad. But yeah. Poison gaunts in the formation are awesome.

[stormcrowfleet]

Thanks for all those tips !

The Demon Prince reward is a Primaris one, so he can take the Instant Death when he want. That's why I fear it. Even if he does not list-tailor, he can still one shot my MC before they can attack in every game.

I will finish building that Exocrine then, seems to be a blast against light transport with that AP2. And I like your Carnifex idea (and the model is very nice), I will get more of those.

[gigasnail]

don't charge his DP then. catch them with gargs if he drops out of the sky, or kill them with flyrants if he stays airborne. don't play his game.

[jaysic]

CC/AG Fex are money.
They either get ignored, due to other targets being higher on your opponents target priority.
Or they get shot at (and it's easy to get them at least a 3+ cover save) and your bigger threats get a huge boost in survivability. They kill Titans stupid easily, they kill knights (if they don't get D weaponed down), they kill any vehicle they can reach (Sorry, raiders / venoms will just dance around them), and they rip down buildings, if that's ever needed.

As for the Nurgle Demon Prince? Buh. Yeah, gargoyles, toxic gaunts, or hope for psychic scream (or whatever our nova power is called, it's late).

[luke1705]

Psychic scream is exactly how you own a daemon prince. They're typically a tough matchup for us because they don't want to fly - they want to assault us. If they fly to gain durability, you get D3 ap2 auto hits via vector strike, which ignore his jink and his shrouded. That's right. If they stay on the ground, gargoyles are excellent tarpits (as they are for everything), and they are vulnerable to psychic scream. It's especially nice because it's not a targeted ability (so no bonuses to deny the witch) and when you use it, you'll of course be in range of shadows, so take that leadership down because you're a psyker. Great fun. Otherwise, you can carnifex charge and use your HOW to try and instant death him (actually it's about a 50/50 proposition) or you can just pour ridiculous amounts of shots into him. I recommend that strategy the least, but it does work. A Hierodule is nice also because it can pump out enough shots at range each turn that the prince should statistically fail one cover save for instant death

[gigasnail]

a fex's HoW is S9, not S10. you're not ID'ing a DP unless there's something i'm missing.

[luke1705]

That's right I forgot it's the un-modified strength

[stormcrowfleet]

Well thanks everyone ! Carnifex seems to be an overall good thing to have, I'm gonna get a second one up and going. Also the Gargoyles seems to be mentionned quite often, I'm gonna have to try them out.

[rroach]

Demon Princes are Leadership 6 when they're in the Shadows. Getting *any* targeted Psyker power off on them is a pain in the ass if they're ML 3, since they'll dispel it on rolls of 4+. If you do roll for Psychic Scream when facing a DP, roll a ton of dice. Your HT will probably won't suffer too badly if you Peril, and you'll need to a mob of dice to make it. But if you do get it off, any combined dice roll over a 4 will cause him wound and a combined roll of 8 will kill him outright (baring Invulnerable saves). It's still a gamble, though.

Or you could suicide a Close Combat HT into him and pray for a 6 to ID him.

Sometimes the best way to deal with an impossible unit is to ignore it or tarpit it. His DP might wipe half your army all by his lonesome, so focus hard on objectives and run run run.

[gigasnail]

tarpit and forget.