FMC questions

[jason]

Below I have 3 questions about Flying Monsterous creatures. In 6th edition, the answer to these questions was YES. But because of the terrain rules changes and/or terrain rules removal that happened with 7th edition, I am now uncertain about these issues.

1.) In 7th edition.....say you have some area terrain that gives cover to models whose base is in/touching it.....obviously ground forces in/touching that area terrain get cover.....BUT.....do flying monsterous creatures who are swooping (flying/fast) get cover from that area terrain if their base is in/touching that area terrain ?? 

 

2.) In 7th edition.....if a swooping (flying/fast) flying monsterous creature is within 6 inches of a Venomthrope, does the FMC get Shrouded ?? 

 

3.) If the answer to #2 is YES.....does Shrouded stack with Jink ??  (4+ cover save becomes 2+ cover save) 

[yarlun]

yes yes and yes ^__^ have funs

[mattblowers]

Oct 31, 2014 12:22:37 GMT yarlun said:

yes yes and yes ^__^ have funs

+1. These are a fair trade off to drifting blasts and templates targeting another model that also hit a FMC actually being able to wound.

[Mauler]

Another thing to remember is that unlike flyers, our FMCs can be targetted and hit by blasts even when swooping. That needs a FAQ for confirmation, IMO.

[mattblowers]

Oct 31, 2014 15:27:11 GMT Mauler said:

Another thing to remember is that unlike flyers, our FMCs can be targetted and hit by blasts even when swooping. That needs a FAQ for confirmation, IMO.

No they can't. They can be hit by scatters but not targeted. Under "Hard to Hit" section: "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

[Mauler]

Oct 31, 2014 15:34:09 GMT mattblowers said:

Oct 31, 2014 15:27:11 GMT Mauler said:

Another thing to remember is that unlike flyers, our FMCs can be targetted and hit by blasts even when swooping. That needs a FAQ for confirmation, IMO.

No they can't. They can be hit by scatters but not targeted. Under "Hard to Hit" section: "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

...unless the weapon has the Skyfire rule.  A fair few flyers with blast weapons can actually hit our FMCs with them.

Including Riptides.

[mattblowers]

Oct 31, 2014 17:26:40 GMT Mauler said:

Oct 31, 2014 15:34:09 GMT mattblowers said:

No they can't. They can be hit by scatters but not targeted. Under "Hard to Hit" section: "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

...unless the weapon has the Skyfire rule.  A fair few flyers with blast weapons can actually hit our FMCs with them.

Including Riptides.

Good catch, I hadn't thought about that angle. So the frostcannon or what not from the new SW flier could really hurt our FMCs.

[creatureboi]

Not sure if this argument would hold water but this is my rules lawyering approach as to why blast weapons can't target FMCs.

Swooping FMCs are "hard to hit- shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as snap shots unless the model has the Skyfire special rule"- p69

Snap Shots- "if a model is forced to make snap shots... Then it's ballistic skill is counted as being 1"-p 32

"Some weapons, such as template and ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as blast, cannot be fired as snap shots"- p33

So far so good- a shot which uses any sort of template (either flamer or blast marker) can't for snap shots and therefore can't target swooping FMCs

Skyfire allows a model to shoot "using its normal ballistic skill when shooting at FMCs"- p171

This is the part where we say "OK, ordinarily your blast weapon can't target my FMC because it's swooping and you can't fire snapshots with that weapon but because you have the skyfire rule you don't have to snap shoot and so can use that blast weapon".

BUT that paragraph quoted from page 33 above goes on to say "in addition, any shooting attack that does not use ballistic skill cannot be "fired" as a snap shot.

So when is a weapon "fired" without using BS? The obvious situation is template weapons- there is never any roll to hit for these (p173).

See also p158- the large black box about the blast rule. This states "when firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit..." My argument would be that, as there is no roll to hit these weapons cannot be fired as snap shots regardless of whether the target is a FMC or not.

The problem that might arise with this argument is that BS does get used for blasts when it comes to the scatter since you deduct BS from the scatter roll (unless firing indirect). That isn't a "roll to hit" though.

If you look hard enough there's always a technicality...

[bigpig]

Yes to all 3.

Some opponents will try to say you don't get #1 because they are flying. There is nowhere in the rules for FMC or terrain where it says Swooping FMCs lose the benefit. Point that out to those who say otherwise.

An additional note. Technically, there is no such thing as "area terrain" anymore in 7th edition. Many of the terrain datasheets and battlefield debris rules have the same effect as what area terrain used to mean in 6th, but the term isn't used anymore. I mention this only because some opponents will drop the "no area terrain anymore" comment. Simply point out each individual terrains rules to show where it gives the cover save simply for touching the terrain.

[bigpig]

Oct 31, 2014 18:27:45 GMT creatureboi said:

Not sure if this argument would hold water but this is my rules lawyering approach as to why blast weapons can't target FMCs.

Swooping FMCs are "hard to hit- shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as snap shots unless the model has the Skyfire special rule"- p69

Snap Shots- "if a model is forced to make snap shots... Then it's ballistic skill is counted as being 1"-p 32

"Some weapons, such as template and ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as blast, cannot be fired as snap shots"- p33

So far so good- a shot which uses any sort of template (either flamer or blast marker) can't for snap shots and therefore can't target swooping FMCs

Skyfire allows a model to shoot "using its normal ballistic skill when shooting at FMCs"- p171

This is the part where we say "OK, ordinarily your blast weapon can't target my FMC because it's swooping and you can't fire snapshots with that weapon but because you have the skyfire rule you don't have to snap shoot and so can use that blast weapon".

BUT that paragraph quoted from page 33 above goes on to say "in addition, any shooting attack that does not use ballistic skill cannot be "fired" as a snap shot.

So when is a weapon "fired" without using BS? The obvious situation is template weapons- there is never any roll to hit for these (p173).

See also p158- the large black box about the blast rule. This states "when firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit..." My argument would be that, as there is no roll to hit these weapons cannot be fired as snap shots regardless of whether the target is a FMC or not.

The problem that might arise with this argument is that BS does get used for blasts when it comes to the scatter since you deduct BS from the scatter roll (unless firing indirect). That isn't a "roll to hit" though.

If you look hard enough there's always a technicality...

This argument has been around a while. GW has not ruled either way or posted an FAQ to clear it up (go figure) Most (unofficial of course) tournament ruling say that the wording is so close as to have clearly been the intent that you can't blast a Swooping FMC with a flamethrower, just like an aircraft.

Page 4 of the BAO format FAQ linked below as an example

drive.google.com/file/d/0B4VC3WZFH6Hnek1leHN4anRncDg/edit?pli=1

Remember, these aren't official GW FAQs, so play however you like with your friends.

[Mauler]

Unfortunately our FMCs are vulnerable to blasts and templates by ommission. The "Hard To Hit" flyer rules specifically state that zooming flyers can't be hit by blasts or templates. The FMC "Hard to Hit" says no such thing. Personally they should've used the bulk of the flyer "Hard To Hit" rule and made it a USR.

[bigpig]

Oct 31, 2014 18:39:36 GMT Mauler said:

Unfortunately our FMCs are vulnerable to blasts and templates by ommission. The "Hard To Hit" flyer rules specifically state that zooming flyers can't be hit by blasts or templates. The FMC "Hard to Hit" says no such thing. Personally they should've used the bulk of the flyer "Hard To Hit" rule and made it a USR.

Yeah, they aren't know for their tight rules set.

I don't disagree with your point, but again, take a look here for community rulings that are being used competitively;

drive.google.com/file/d/0B4VC3WZFH6Hnek1leHN4anRncDg/edit?pli=1

As I understand it, this ruling is partly based on an alleged conversation where GW design team said in interviews that the omission was a cut and paste error. I don't know... figure they would FAQ that if it was the case, but they don't get around to doing that sort of thing it seems.

Play it how you like at home, but in the big tournament games you can't blast/template swooping fliers.

[Mauler]

Aye, I don't see how one flying unit at speed is untargettable but another isn't. Generally we don't blast my FMCs lol

[Jabberwocky]

FMCs can get a ruin cover save without being obscured while a flyer can't. I wouldn't start trying to make logical connections, just stick to what is written.

I get enough flakk for jinking in glide mode, even after pointing out bikes and skimmers that haven't even moved can do it too.

The difference could be an ommission, it probably is. It could be for balance, so helldrakes can roast us. We all know they thought FMC were too powerful, hence the other nerfs this edition.