Why is the Mawloc bad?

[tyrannical]

Having perused the forums and tactics sited there seems to be a consensus that the trygon and mawloc are rubbish. I was reading the mawloc's rules. I don't get why they're bad. They even do AP2 damage when they arrive by deep strike as well as other rules that seem good. What am I missing?

I like the model so I am trying to make a case for its inclusion...

[bigpig]

It's not "bad". It's just random and unreliable. It can cause backfield disruption and reach out and kill stuff. If it hits it is great. Most of the time it misses. Basically you are paying those points to be able to drop 3 S6 AP2 pieplates in the game.

[tyrannical]

ok. But once he arrives he can do some damage as well...no?

[bigpig]

Oct 30, 2014 18:21:48 GMT tyrannical said:

ok. But once he arrives he can do some damage as well...no?

No, he only has 3 attacks and WS3. That means 1.5 hits in melee per turn, 2 on the charge. Sure he is AP2, but at Str6 he isn't going to be flipping any vehicles. His best use is to do his Terror from the Deep attack. Start on board turn1 and burrow. Blast on 2, burrow on 3, blast on 4, and then either burrow on 5 or run for backfield objectives if you think the game might end and you need objectives.

[javaman21011]

Oct 30, 2014 18:28:13 GMT bigpig said:

Oct 30, 2014 18:21:48 GMT tyrannical said:

ok. But once he arrives he can do some damage as well...no?

No, he only has 3 attacks and WS3. That means 1.5 hits in melee per turn, 2 on the charge. Sure he is AP2, but at Str6 he isn't going to be flipping any vehicles. His best use is to do his Terror from the Deep attack. Start on board turn1 and burrow. Blast on 2, burrow on 3, blast on 4, and then either burrow on 5 or run for backfield objectives if you think the game might end and you need objectives.

Rules say you can't burrow on Turn 1. So either you keep him in reserves and TftD on a lucky 3+ on turn 2. Or you burrow turn 2, and Terror on turn 3, then burrow turn 4 and Terror again Turn 5. So basically for 170ish points you have a possible pie plate shenanigans on guaranteed turn 3. Not a great investment.

[Yautja]

The Mawloc is far from rubbish. Yes it is not reliable but nothing else offers infinity range AP2(x2). It's not expensive either. It's not great in combat but benefits from 'hit and run'. Use that at the end of the opponent's assault phase so it can burrow in your following turn to burrow up again later.

It's one of those units that can be utterly useless one game and appear totally overpowered in another.

[roxor08]

I had him remove 6/8 models in a Libby-Chaplain-Terminator unit the turn after they DS'ed. Anecdotal? Yes. But valid, imo.

I am including 2 in my tournament list for an upcoming tournament.

While I'd agree that the Trygon is a terrible option for Tyranids (at the current state) the Mawloc is arguably one of the best MCs we have available to us, not to mention the cheapest MC in points per wound.

I'll show you what I mean, referring to my current list:

Primary detachment
Dakkaflyrant - Electroshock Grubs
Dakkaflyrant - Electroshock Grubs
Malanthrope
4 Deep striking Ripper swarms (3 bases each)
23 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs
Allies
Dakkaflyrant - Electroshock Grubs
Venomthrope
Deep striking Ripper swarms (3 bases)
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs

I'll start by laying it out for you with dirty math. If your interested, I'm sure someone somewhere on the internet has the actual math.

With a 66% chance of coming in turn 2 (~90% with re-rolls from Strategic trait or comms relay) you will successfully (with a deviation of less than 4) hit your target ~40% of the time. Since a Mawloc can't be placed if a model occupies the space with which you're trying to TftD, but you must also follow normal DS rules, you mishap. This means that no enemy model can remain after the attack within 1" of your base. Because the blast marker is 5", no living enemy can be within 6" of the original target. Unless you're targetting a MSU unit, chances are pretty good that you'll have a model preventing you from placing the Mawloc. Now, because you mishap, there's only a 1/6 chance that your Mawloc will be destroyed. Both of the other mishap options are good for you because if your opponent places it, he's intending to deal with it. That means, less incoming damage for your Flyrants and friends.

The other side of the coin has the concepts that can't be quantified. Your opponent can't deploy freely with fear of losing his units. With 4 S6 AP2 ignore cover blasts coming in turn 2, would you want your Broadsides on the board? Would you want them on the ground level of a ruin? This is very limiting. The same applies to a Wraithknight, Riptide, Centurions, or _______. Furthermore, with Maelstrom missions becoming a "norm", having a unit, not to mention an MC being able to DS anywhere you want to contest an objective, clear out OBJ SEC units, or put a last wound on a problem model is extremely valuable. What about ignoring Jink/invisibility? The Mawloc attack doesn't target a unit, so it can be your (albiet long shot) answer to a 1HP Wave Serpent or super unit with Invis.

Sure, it's only a WS3 A3 model. But plan on using it as a bait unit. It is much more valuable as a "counter assault" unit. Put it in a place where it might get assaulted by a "meh" unit that your opponent is hoping protect by getting stuck in assault. Oh wait! It's also got Hit and run! Sure, that USR might be situational at best, but if your opponent isn't very astute and is planning for that unit to be protected from shooting by being in assault, SURPRISE!

Ultimately, the Mawloc isn't simply valuable for the quantitative value it brings, but also the qualitative value.

This transitions into another point that players typically forget: You don't need to completely destroy a unit in order to make it ineffective. A unit of Legion of the damned (Multimelta, combimelta, meltagun) will decimate your important MCs. After hit with a Mawloc? Even if you fail to kill them all, the 1 or 2 that *might* survive will not be able to function as they were intended. Farsight bomb a problem? Give it nothing important to shoot at and BLAM! Mawloc.

Sorry, I rambled a bit, but I hope I got the point across. TL; DR: Mawloc is awesome. Yes, it is lackluster after it arrives (if it arrives on the board) but you still force your opponent to deal with something that they didn't want to.

[tyrannical]

Thanks for that explanation. I would make two points. Firstly, is your army legal? I thought an allied detachment had to be from a different faction.

Secondly when making the case for one unit you also have to take into account the loss of its potential replacement. In other words the mawloc keeps out other heavy choices. Does it contribute as much as they would if they were in the army?

[wilson]

Mawlocs are awesome. I run 2 without fail.

[Yautja]

Oct 30, 2014 19:43:29 GMT tyrannical said:

Thanks for that explanation. I would make two points. Firstly, is your army legal? I thought an allied detachment had to be from a different faction.

Technically it is illegal yes but many competitions do allow it.

[slithernaut]

Oct 30, 2014 18:08:19 GMT bigpig said:

It's not "bad". It's just random and unreliable. It can cause backfield disruption and reach out and kill stuff. If it hits it is great. Most of the time it misses. Basically you are paying those points to be able to drop 3 S6 AP2 pieplates in the game.

Don't use Mawloc with out Death Leaper and at least three Lictors. The Mawloc really is the closest thing we have to an actuial "trap door spider"

Land raider coming right at my Lictors, Death Company jumps out, kills all but one, then next turn, blam, Mawloc pie plate takes out all but two Death Company before I rolled a one on the mishap table

[jimmyp]

I love using my two mawlocs especially against marines and tau. Doing hit and run tactic is key so they re burrow again. Had some awesome games took out a entire terminator squad and tactical squad, that was only one mawloc as well

[luke1705]

Mawlocs are actually quite good when they work, and not that bad when they scatter and miss. I did once have a Mawloc hit, mishap and die, giving up first blood. That wasn't cool. I've also had his two blasts give me first blood and slay the warlord before. The problem on a tournament level is that when you get a unit, you want to know what you're getting out of it. With the Mawloc, you don't know if he's going to be good or mediocre/bad until you roll those scatter die. At a competitive level where every edge matters, that's a big deal. Although even some tournament players are willing to live with that risk and have used one in a Grand Tournament. I love him and use one in just about every list - don't like to use more because that's almost 1/5 of my army in reserves - but one is a great X factor that can sometimes make back far more than his points

[mattblowers]

Oct 30, 2014 19:09:36 GMT roxor08 said:

I had him remove 6/8 models in a Libby-Chaplain-Terminator unit the turn after they DS'ed. Anecdotal? Yes. But valid, imo.

I am including 2 in my tournament list for an upcoming tournament.

While I'd agree that the Trygon is a terrible option for Tyranids (at the current state) the Mawloc is arguably one of the best MCs we have available to us, not to mention the cheapest MC in points per wound.

I'll show you what I mean, referring to my current list:

Primary detachment
Dakkaflyrant - Electroshock Grubs
Dakkaflyrant - Electroshock Grubs
Malanthrope
4 Deep striking Ripper swarms (3 bases each)
23 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs
Allies
Dakkaflyrant - Electroshock Grubs
Venomthrope
Deep striking Ripper swarms (3 bases)
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, Electroshock Grubs

I'll start by laying it out for you with dirty math. If your interested, I'm sure someone somewhere on the internet has the actual math.

With a 66% chance of coming in turn 2 (~90% with re-rolls from Strategic trait or comms relay) you will successfully (with a deviation of less than 4) hit your target ~40% of the time. Since a Mawloc can't be placed if a model occupies the space with which you're trying to TftD, but you must also follow normal DS rules, you mishap. This means that no enemy model can remain after the attack within 1" of your base. Because the blast marker is 5", no living enemy can be within 6" of the original target. Unless you're targetting a MSU unit, chances are pretty good that you'll have a model preventing you from placing the Mawloc. Now, because you mishap, there's only a 1/6 chance that your Mawloc will be destroyed. Both of the other mishap options are good for you because if your opponent places it, he's intending to deal with it. That means, less incoming damage for your Flyrants and friends.

The other side of the coin has the concepts that can't be quantified. Your opponent can't deploy freely with fear of losing his units. With 4 S6 AP2 ignore cover blasts coming in turn 2, would you want your Broadsides on the board? Would you want them on the ground level of a ruin? This is very limiting. The same applies to a Wraithknight, Riptide, Centurions, or _______. Furthermore, with Maelstrom missions becoming a "norm", having a unit, not to mention an MC being able to DS anywhere you want to contest an objective, clear out OBJ SEC units, or put a last wound on a problem model is extremely valuable. What about ignoring Jink/invisibility? The Mawloc attack doesn't target a unit, so it can be your (albiet long shot) answer to a 1HP Wave Serpent or super unit with Invis.

Sure, it's only a WS3 A3 model. But plan on using it as a bait unit. It is much more valuable as a "counter assault" unit. Put it in a place where it might get assaulted by a "meh" unit that your opponent is hoping protect by getting stuck in assault. Oh wait! It's also got Hit and run! Sure, that USR might be situational at best, but if your opponent isn't very astute and is planning for that unit to be protected from shooting by being in assault, SURPRISE!

Ultimately, the Mawloc isn't simply valuable for the quantitative value it brings, but also the qualitative value.

This transitions into another point that players typically forget: You don't need to completely destroy a unit in order to make it ineffective. A unit of Legion of the damned (Multimelta, combimelta, meltagun) will decimate your important MCs. After hit with a Mawloc? Even if you fail to kill them all, the 1 or 2 that *might* survive will not be able to function as they were intended. Farsight bomb a problem? Give it nothing important to shoot at and BLAM! Mawloc.

Sorry, I rambled a bit, but I hope I got the point across. TL; DR: Mawloc is awesome. Yes, it is lackluster after it arrives (if it arrives on the board) but you still force your opponent to deal with something that they didn't want to.

I think your math is off. Not only do you have to roll for reserves but roll to scatter and then roll to wound. Too many variables. It was more reliable when you could burrow on turn 1.

[bigpig]

Just remember, everyone will tell you about all the times he hit right on target. 2 out of 3 times he will probably miss entirely or MAYBE clip the edge of the unit (granted, he could hit something else if you're lucky). Anecdotal experience can lead to unrealistic expectations. That's fine, but just don't be surprised if he does nothing at all.

Thanks for correcting me on the turn 1 burrow, I haven't played him since the first few months of the new codex and I slipped back into the old version .

Ultimately, it kind of depends on why you are playing. In a multi round tournament or multigame league you want to try and win, where you need your units to perform at their best every game, there might be better choices (read: more reliable). As Luke mentioned, some tournament players have used one, though most of the top end ones I've spoken with about it have tried it and then stopped using it because of the games where it does nothing. In one off games where the big swings don't matter, he can make for some pretty spectacular tales of victory and there is nothing cooler than a giant monster coming up from nowhere and gobbling up the enemy!

All I can say is, try it and see what you think for yourself. Sometimes it is more about what works for your playstyle and personality than anything else.