|
Post by tag8833 on Oct 2, 2014 1:14:29 GMT
Which illustrates how threatening HG are to Wave Serpents. How is that? Do you usually use models to engage a unit that threatens it? I was under the impression that's a poor choice. Some of the benefits of Hive Guard are very dependant on terrain, so you can at least say some of it is conditional. But I feel that terrain is more prominent as a balancing factor against gun lines. Besides, which 24" gun can you just sit in the back and expect to do much work? It sounds like you're using them poorly. You engage the model that threatens your army first if it is at all possible. That is smart play. If I'm running a list with many FMC's, the first units I target are those that can harm FMC's. That means Skyfire and twin linking. the Classic example is Marines with a Stalker. That Stalker is usually going to die for first blood. Another example was the necron list I played last night. There was exactly one Anhillation Barge. That died asap (2nd turn, because of jink and night fighting). So it stands to reason that if you are playing a serpent spam list, and that is what hive guard are good for, then you would try to kill the hive guard first, or at least very early. I ran Hive Guard against a Eldar / Dark Eldar player with 3 Serpents, a forgeworld DE Skimmer (12, 12, 10, 4 HP), and 2 Venoms, and he did indeed try to kill the hive guard as soon as my venomthropes were dead. Fortunately, I made a ton of 4+ saves, and 2 wounded hive guard survived the alpha strike. Once he saw how unthreatening the hive guard actually were, once I begin shooting at him, he instead shot up my gants. The 2 Hive guard shot for 3 turns at wave serpents (no range turn 1). Failed to do a wound. On turn 4 they assaulted a wave serpent and actually took off a hull point in assault. Any turn after the 1st he could have killed the Hive guard. But there was no point. I was scoring points, and nearly killing things with the rest of my army, so the Hive Guard were a very, very low target priority. On my opponent's last turn I had 3 biovores, 3 gargoyles, 12 hormagants, and the 2 hive guard left alive. He killed everything that wasn't locked in combat before the Hive Guard. I guess I was just using them poorly by firing at the Wave Serpents? Maybe I should have kept them in my backfield, and never tried to assault with them. Then they would have done 0 Hull Points in the game.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Oct 2, 2014 4:48:53 GMT
if they're not derp and have any kind of target priority and are killing your HG, they've already killed your 3 flyrants which are the bigger overall threat. they've also either a) killed your venomthropes (not too hard) or malanthropes (a bit taller of an order, but still doable) or b) are going to have to shoot your HG with a 2+ cover save. tl;dr: HG are waaaay down the list of things for your opponent to shoot.
or you've left your HG out to be shot for some reason, or had to lurch your flyrants off the board to protect them from incomming flyers/reposition to shoot down incomming flyers or w/e emergent threat has popped up. these things do happen.
|
|
|
Post by Hive Bahamut on Oct 2, 2014 6:53:59 GMT
I would take an Exogrin before Hive Guard any day. At least AP2 might blow up that (please do not swear) APC. That isn't saying much though, Exo's still blow goats too. Weird that non gets hot plasma sucks so much..
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Oct 2, 2014 7:05:34 GMT
exo worse by far for what we're talking about (wave serpents). i don't feel like mathing the rest out (again).
are we really having a heated argument about our #10 in the tyranid popularity contest? come on guys.
|
|
|
Post by Yautja on Oct 2, 2014 11:49:03 GMT
I would take an Exogrin before Hive Guard any day. At least AP2 might blow up that (please do not swear) APC. That isn't saying much though, Exo's still blow goats too. Weird that non gets hot plasma sucks so much.. I think the point is that the advantage of AP2 is offset by the bigger disadvantage of said units often being in cover or benefiting from jink. Exocrine also has zero chance against AV14.
|
|
|
Post by akiranid on Oct 2, 2014 14:57:38 GMT
I went for the mawloc as every time in have used him he's done me proud even when he scatters off course a bit he still gets to smash something eventually
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Oct 2, 2014 15:02:22 GMT
if they're not derp and have any kind of target priority and are killing your HG, they've already killed your 3 flyrants which are the bigger overall threat. they've also either a) killed your venomthropes (not too hard) or malanthropes (a bit taller of an order, but still doable) or b) are going to have to shoot your HG with a 2+ cover save. tl;dr: HG are waaaay down the list of things for your opponent to shoot. or you've left your HG out to be shot for some reason, or had to lurch your flyrants off the board to protect them from incomming flyers/reposition to shoot down incomming flyers or w/e emergent threat has popped up. these things do happen. If I could convince opponents to shoot at Hive Guard 1st, I might take them. Any shots going into the Hive Guard instead of units that can actually kill things consistently like Flyrants or Dakkafexes or even Exocrine are probably worth it. Kind of like a TFex, if I think I can convince my opponent to shoot at it, then it is well worth it.
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Oct 2, 2014 15:26:37 GMT
I don't always run Hive Guard, but when I do I run at least 6 but I really like 9. I'm working on a list with 15 currently. They do not dissapoint me. I think that what is going wrong with the comparison is that you are trying to swap them out for something else. Stop that. They don't replace Dakkafexes (probably my favorite unit outside flyrants) or exocrines, they have completely different roles. When I run Hive Guard I build my list for them and they do splendidly. I don't mind bucking conventional wisdom to try to find something that will work.
Think about it this way: what has changed about Hive Guard? Yes, they lost one BS, but they gained true ignores cover. They can still hide out of LOS and be very effective. They hit light armour really well (our only reliable strength 8 or better shooting) and they have 2 wounds on a T6 frame. Sure they inexplicably get biomorphs, but they don't need them so that doesn't play a factor in my mind. Used in conjunction with assault units they help keep the enemy at bay so you can get off the charge. Parked forward in ruins and out of LOS they have a huge threat range. Because most high strength weapons have a low AP, people are more scared of them than they should be, it's classical conditioning. Most people are used to responding to high strength in a certain way. When you add the fact that they ignore Cover and don't need LOS they get a better reaction than is proportionate.
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Oct 2, 2014 20:52:14 GMT
I don't always run Hive Guard, but when I do I run at least 6 but I really like 9. I'm working on a list with 15 currently. They do not dissapoint me. I think that what is going wrong with the comparison is that you are trying to swap them out for something else. Stop that. They don't replace Dakkafexes (probably my favorite unit outside flyrants) or exocrines, they have completely different roles. When I run Hive Guard I build my list for them and they do splendidly. I don't mind bucking conventional wisdom to try to find something that will work. Part of the reason I consider Hive Guard so bad, is that it seems like they lack synergies with absolutely everything else in our codex. They are a quasi gun-line unit in a codex that is designed to be in your face. Spamming 12 Hive Guard, and you've got yourself a pretty unimpressive gunline. What goes well with that? TFexes? Biovores? Swarmlord? Preferred enemy makes them almost as effective as they were last codex. Not getting to reroll 1's to glance a vehicle is a significant limitation to that strategy, though. If Swarmlord could give Tank Hunter of Armorbane, it would be much better.
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Oct 2, 2014 21:06:43 GMT
They are a quasi gun-line unit in a codex that is designed to be in your face. Spamming 12 Hive Guard, and you've got yourself a pretty unimpressive gunline. What goes well with that? How are we designed to "be in your face?" Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Orks, and many builds from most other codexes actually can punk us pretty hard in hand to hand. I find that we actually do better with a shoot first and then mop up strategy. They can't shoot what they can't see. They can't charge through gargoyle and gaunt broods. Gargoyles, crones, flyants, a biobore brood, a malanthrope/venomthrope and deep striking ripper swarms work really well together (you need a warrior/shrike brood or two for synapse as well). You will shred xenos with that list and even Centurions are gonna struggle with tons of 6+ gribblies on the board. If I can survive turn 1 without too heavy of losses I haven't lost with it yet. Tau is still a problem and Eldar can be bad, but it works pretty well. The biggest trick is focused fire. If you have good target priority you can demoralize and then pick apart.
|
|
|
Post by almostmercury on Oct 2, 2014 21:22:27 GMT
I'm actually convinced that WS4 BS3 is a typo that GW is unwilling to admit.
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Oct 2, 2014 22:53:11 GMT
They are a quasi gun-line unit in a codex that is designed to be in your face. Spamming 12 Hive Guard, and you've got yourself a pretty unimpressive gunline. What goes well with that? How are we designed to "be in your face?" Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Orks, and many builds from most other codexes actually can punk us pretty hard in hand to hand. I find that we actually do better with a shoot first and then mop up strategy. They can't shoot what they can't see. They can't charge through gargoyle and gaunt broods. Gargoyles, crones, flyants, a biobore brood, a malanthrope/venomthrope and deep striking ripper swarms work really well together (you need a warrior/shrike brood or two for synapse as well). You will shred xenos with that list and even Centurions are gonna struggle with tons of 6+ gribblies on the board. If I can survive turn 1 without too heavy of losses I haven't lost with it yet. Tau is still a problem and Eldar can be bad, but it works pretty well. The biggest trick is focused fire. If you have good target priority you can demoralize and then pick apart. Sure we can get punked in Close Combat. We aren't a close combat army. But we are certainly an in your face army. We've got 18" shooting, and after we shoot, usually we charge. So explain to me how Hive Guard serve you better than Dakkafexes (better against light armor) or Crones (Better against Heavy Armour). Crones give you the added synergy of flier saturation, while Dakkafexes offer you firepower to backup your gargoyles and board control. Plus, the added benefit is that they are better against all of the armies you named with the possible exception of Grey Knights. I get the impression that board control isn't really a priority in your meta. Do you play Eternal War exclusively?
|
|
|
Post by Yautja on Oct 2, 2014 23:00:06 GMT
Why people like them has already been explained.
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Oct 2, 2014 23:45:31 GMT
How are we designed to "be in your face?" Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Orks, and many builds from most other codexes actually can punk us pretty hard in hand to hand. I find that we actually do better with a shoot first and then mop up strategy. They can't shoot what they can't see. They can't charge through gargoyle and gaunt broods. Gargoyles, crones, flyants, a biobore brood, a malanthrope/venomthrope and deep striking ripper swarms work really well together (you need a warrior/shrike brood or two for synapse as well). You will shred xenos with that list and even Centurions are gonna struggle with tons of 6+ gribblies on the board. If I can survive turn 1 without too heavy of losses I haven't lost with it yet. Tau is still a problem and Eldar can be bad, but it works pretty well. The biggest trick is focused fire. If you have good target priority you can demoralize and then pick apart. Sure we can get punked in Close Combat. We aren't a close combat army. But we are certainly an in your face army. We've got 18" shooting, and after we shoot, usually we charge. So explain to me how Hive Guard serve you better than Dakkafexes (better against light armor) or Crones (Better against Heavy Armour). Crones give you the added synergy of flier saturation, while Dakkafexes offer you firepower to backup your gargoyles and board control. Plus, the added benefit is that they are better against all of the armies you named with the possible exception of Grey Knights. I get the impression that board control isn't really a priority in your meta. Do you play Eternal War exclusively? I feel like your mind is made up and your aren't listening to what we are saying. They work b/c your enemy can't see them. Centurions can't see them. Plasma can't see them. Missle launchers can't see them. Wraithknights can't see them. All those things demolish dakkafexes. I love dakkafexes. But like you said, you shoot once and then charge. If that is how you always play, then you're right, hive guard aren't right for you. If you are willing to try something new, hive guard might be worth a look.
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Oct 3, 2014 2:14:43 GMT
I don't think you are right, but even if I accept that a Wraith Knight or Centstar doesn't have the mobility to get around a LOS blocking piece of terrain, I don't understand why being out of the target priority is such a good thing. I would rather lose a squad of Hive Guard than a Flyrant. I would rather lose a squad of Hive Guard than my backfield synapse. The only thing that is generally going to be less critical to my army is Gants and Gargoyles. So Protecting my Hive Guard while raising the effective target priority of my other units is actually a bad thing.
Dakkafexes are good for about 3-4 rounds of shooting usually. Most games they only pull off one charge.
Hive Guard when I use them, almost always pull off one charge as well, because they are so low target priority for every one I play that I can walk them right down the middle of the table, and no one bothers them unless they've already kill my other ground forces, and there is no reason to give up their assault potential just because they don't need LOS.
They served me well recently vs an Ork player that had never seen the new codex Hive Guard. He was terrified of bringing his warbikers into range, and let me use them for board control. They Killed 2 ork Boyz turn 1. Then ate overwatch for my gants, but failed their charge. They took 1 HP off of a trukk on turn 2. 2 HP off of a Dakkajet turn 3, and killed a Deff Dread (3HP! on back armor) on turn 4. Turn 5, they had no targets, and just sat on an objective. A dakkajet did shoot at them at one point, but it was snapshooting and they had a 2+ cover, and made their saves. That isn't saying that a Dakkafex or Crone wouldn't have been a better choice.
|
|