I have questions!

[topaxygourouni]

It's been a year and a half since I last look at tyranids (and 40k in general). I played a 4000 game yesterday and we will have a semi-apocalypse game next month (25k points per side but only a titan or two in total). So I get to blow the dust off my models. Now there's a new edition out and looking at peoples' lists here I get a lot of questions.

1. Why do people suggest to use gargoyles? Blind is only one initiative test now instead of a million, so... am I missing something?
2. Why do people play minimum reaper swarm units as their troops? Are gants/gaunts really that bad? Even devils? I thought that a 5 point fleet/move through cover/bounding leap unit was a steal. no?
3. How come that raveners/shrikes are a thing now? Wasn't always the instant death thing the reason why they sucked? Is that because of malanthropes? And do malanthropes survive any better than venoms? If that's the case, are warriors also a thing? or do shrikes/raveners survive due to speed?
4. Why do people spam egrubs? Since shreddershard are a lot better to deal with high armor stuff, what's the point of the egrubs? More geq killing? Maybe d3 hull points of overwatch damage vs walkers?
5. What I found out from yesterday's game is that flyrants are supposed to jink every single turn now. So doesn't that gimp the devourers big time? Any solutions/alternatives?

6. And a final one. Since I love me some dune worms, I got my eyes set on the subterranean assault formation. But I only own 2 x trygon/mawloc and 6 raveners. Has anyone who played that formation has any insight as to whether it is worth it to go buy another monster and one more ravener box? Also is it physically possible to depoly more than MSU of raveners using this formation?

Thanks in advance for any answers

[Jabberwocky]

On my phone so forgive me if I miss anything.

Gargoyles for speed and the big silhouette makes them better at granting cover to MCs.

Shrikes because of speed and the ability to get boneswords where you need them, I.e. Against problem MCs and the like.

Rippers because they're cheap and easy to hide out of sight and also deepstrike onto objectives.

Sub swarm has always intrigued me but never had the models to try it out. The lack of scatter is good for the mawlocs and coming in turn 1 in apoc makes it viable for turn 2 charges with everything else.

Malanthropes are great, much more durable than venomthropes.

[Jabberwocky]

Oh and jink only against low ap fire. If you use terrain/cover you won't even need to jink at all usually. Cc flyrants though can jink away and if sticking to Malanthropes can achieve 2+ cover even in the open.

E grubs because av13+ is a much bigger problem than 2+ armour infantry which often have invulnerable saves nestled in them anyway.

[coredump]

Sept 28, 2014 14:27:38 GMT topaxygourouni said:

It's been a year and a half since I last look at tyranids (and 40k in general). I played a 4000 game yesterday and we will have a semi-apocalypse game next month (25k points per side but only a titan or two in total). So I get to blow the dust off my models. Now there's a new edition out and looking at peoples' lists here I get a lot of questions.

Heh, a 4K game is a heck of a way to get your feet wet...

1. Why do people suggest to use gargoyles? Blind is only one initiative test now instead of a million, so... am I missing something?

Gargoyles are really fast, and pretty cheap for that speed.
They work great as a screening element for cover saves (boosted by malan or venoms)
The work great for tarpits (wraithknights etc)
If out of IB they GtG instead of running away or eating themselves.

2. Why do people play minimum reaper swarm units as their troops? Are gants/gaunts really that bad? Even devils? I thought that a 5 point fleet/move through cover/bounding leap unit was a steal. no?

Many folks want to minimize points on troops to maximize points on more deadly options. If you take gaunts, you also need a synapse unit to babysit.
Rippers can Deep strike, to grab objectives far away. They are also easier to keep out of LoS.
WHen out of IB, gaunts run away, HGaunts feed on half the unit, then run away; rippers do a wound or two, and stick around.

Gaunts, however, are better at being a roadblock, and can become more of a threat in numbers with devourers sprinkled in

3. How come that raveners/shrikes are a thing now? Wasn't always the instant death thing the reason why they sucked? Is that because of malanthropes? And do malanthropes survive any better than venoms? If that's the case, are warriors also a thing? or do shrikes/raveners survive due to speed?

They're not really.... except we want them to be because folks like them. S8 has dropped a lot since 5th (but back a bit in 7th), and yes, with the malanthrope, we can bring a good save with us up the field.
Shrikes>Raveners. Warriors still not a thing, if you want CC, might as well use Shrikes, and they don't have enough shooting to make that worthwhile. MSU warriors are still viable in certain situations.

4. Why do people spam egrubs? Since shreddershard are a lot better to deal with high armor stuff, what's the point of the egrubs? More geq killing? Maybe d3 hull points of overwatch damage vs walkers?

High armor meaning 2+ saves? Devourers are fine for that. (at least as good as a S3 rending) egrubs are one of our only ways of dealing with AV13/14 vehicles, especially land raiders and monoliths.

5. What I found out from yesterday's game is that flyrants are supposed to jink every single turn now. So doesn't that gimp the devourers big time? Any solutions/alternatives?

Did someone tell you that? I almost never jink, maybe if they have a large amount of skyfire. But then shoot down their flyers and move on. If you have a problem, put the flyrants in ruins, or near venom/malan.

[topaxygourouni]

Sept 28, 2014 17:06:23 GMT coredump said:

5. What I found out from yesterday's game is that flyrants are supposed to jink every single turn now. So doesn't that gimp the devourers big time? Any solutions/alternatives?

Did someone tell you that? I almost never jink, maybe if they have a large amount of skyfire. But then shoot down their flyers and move on. If you have a problem, put the flyrants in ruins, or near venom/malan.

Let me rephrase: If my flyrants don't jink every turn, they are probably toast. I love how much better the test to fall down has got, but people tend to turn around and unload stupid amounts of TL shooting on my flyrants, much of which is ap 2/3, so in yesterday's game I HAD to jink every turn.

Since I played the old Tyranids, I don't have any malanthropes (they were some sort of HQ back then no?) I read their rules now and I am pretty impressed. 4 wounds, T5 with a decent armor save, synapse, fleet AND spore cloud for that low point cost? Sign me up please. So happy Tau can put the SMS up their yellow butts now. So I am buying 2 of those, but until I get them my only chastity belt consists of two venomthropes. And that's not a very durable intercourse protection.

After playing 4000 pts and putting literally whatever I liked in the list, I feel like I don't want to go back to small point games. too constricting. For the record I played against Dark angels/Black templars and I beat the (please do not swear) out of them.

For the apoc game I am bringing my entire collection with full upgrades on everything Should amount to about 9000 pts more or less, more if I manage to get the malanthropes and complete the subterranean formation by then. Should be epic. Sooooo excited.

[Kwodd]

You should be achieving decent cover with your flyrant without a jink save.

Subterranean swarm isn't that great after removing the ravener's ability to assault from deepstrike.

[Yautja]

Isn't there an Apocalypse version of the Subterranean formation though? If he's playing 4k games...

[gigasnail]

the apoc sub swarm is a very different beast. everything else cor's already covered.

[tag8833]

Your experience at high point levels is going to differ wildly from most of the chatter in the forum which is based around games of 1500 to 1850 primarily.

1. Gargoyles are the best tarpit in the game. They are cheap. They are fast. Blind is great against some things like riptides but is essentially a bonus.

2. Ripper are favored by those who dislike gants. The discussion of synapse is mainly a justification after the fact. Gants take time to deploy and move. Rippers are faster.

3. Raveners are not a thing. However Shrikes have replaced warriors in everything except as a tax to run certain formations. Shrikes have all the flaws of warriors, but are faster.

4. Shredder beetles aren't near as good as you think they are. E Grubs are needed because the changes to smash make every walker a threat to our mcs in close combat. Add to that imperial knights have become a hugely popular walker showing up every where, and then we have junking skimmers with a 3+ save against everything else. E grubs didn't get better. Everything else got substantially worse.

5. Answered above.

6. Sub swarm the apoc formation is great. Sub swarm the non apoc formation stinks. The main reason is that the nerf to smash has left the already over costed Trygon cradling its knees in the shower sobbing uncontrollably.

[topaxygourouni]

Do I need any gargaduan creatures or titans for the apoc sub swarm formation? Can someone tell me what it invloves precisely?

[coredump]

1 trygon prime
3+ raveners
0+ trygons and mawlocs

Come in any turn you want, all together.

Nearby enemies take a pinning test, all SS units have Shrouded.


Hey, can units assault from reserves in Apoc?

[coredump]

As for jinking flyrant.... I guess it depends on how much high S AP3/2 twinlinked stuff he has. A non-skyfire TL gun has about a 30% chance of hitting, then wound. So it takes about 16 TL lascannons to take out a flyrant. (32 if you jink) I am not used to seeing that many TL lascannons (OTOH: 4K pts)

But, if he is putting that much attention onto the flyrants... I would be okaywith that, since those same shots kill 6 fexes, or 4 Tfexs/Tervigons.

I am willing to jink and deal with TLinked devourer snapshooting to save 4-6 other TMCs.

[topaxygourouni]

They have melee for the carnifexes Some centurion dudes that look rediculous. They hold something like a mistletoe in each hand and they have ini 4 str 9 ap 1 with rerolls in the first round of combat. He pairs them with a chap-something master and 2-3 inquisitors and they really bring the pain. And Dark angels have some terminators with maces and flails and smite and they also hit with str 10 ap 1. And all of those eggs are inside landraiders. I try to tie them up with gants, but they have a lot of flamers so gants go down quickly. On the plus side I killed them anyways because all my three tyrants rolled psychic scream and I just kep screaming at them until they died.

[javaman21011]

Sept 29, 2014 15:33:42 GMT coredump said:

1 trygon prime
3+ raveners
0+ trygons and mawlocs

Come in any turn you want, all together.

Nearby enemies take a pinning test, all SS units have Shrouded.


Hey, can units assault from reserves in Apoc?

Good lord, why didn't they include this version in the Dataslates?

[gigasnail]

Nooooo clue. Everyone was hoping for a ground based formation as good as skyblight. That's....not what we got.