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Post by mattblowers on Oct 8, 2014 15:13:24 GMT
Something like that wouldn't seem like stealing to me (which as far as I understand it is one of the main issues some people have with 3rd party sellers of 40k minis), since you're still buying the actual models. I don't think stealing is the right word. Buying a knock off product isn't stealing, it's buying a knock off product. For me, the issue is the direction you want the industry to head. If you want good products from a sustainable company, then purchase all you can from legitimate GW supplies. If that idea is too existential for you to sink your teeth into, then consider where you play. Do you have a local store you where you like to play? Give them all the business you can afford. After all, they pay for lights, wages, rental, and provide gaming space. That has a value. If you just play in your own basement with buds, that may not be an issue for you. Last night (I play at my local store at least 1x/week) I wanted to purchase some used DV cultists from them, but they were asking a lot more than I could get them on ebay. I went to the owner and showed him how much I could get them off ebay for and asked what he could do. I said I wanted to give him the business and was willing to pay more than ebay, but didn't want to pay that much. Guess what? he made the deal worthwhile and we both won. For me the relationships I have b/c of the store is worth something and I'm willing to put my money there to support them. I'm not trying to be the morality police, I'm just trying to help you think about what you value and how your actions can either support what you value or take from it.
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Post by ilovethenids on Oct 10, 2014 0:43:26 GMT
What I was talking about was buying the models from your FLGS or GW and having some alternative machine that you could use to scan the model, and then use a computer program to paint it. You're still buying and supporting the hobby with the models; it's just that for people like me with shaky hands and poor depth perception, we can never get to true pro level by hand. If something like that existed I'd totally buy it.
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Post by coredump on Oct 10, 2014 1:22:58 GMT
How much would you spend for such a machine... You may be able to find a local player willing to paint them for you for less. (though that machine would rock...)
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Post by ilovethenids on Oct 10, 2014 1:36:15 GMT
I'd be willing to spend as much money as I could realistically afford to spend on something. like that right now, and I know I could hire someone to paint the models for me but I want to do it myself. Even though I wouldn't be doing it by hand, it's still MY work and I'm the one putting the effort into making it look good.
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Post by infornography on Oct 13, 2014 13:31:58 GMT
I would definitely throw down up to $500 on a machine like that. Maybe more. The time savings alone would be totally worth it.
Of course I would expect it to be not as precise as a pro doing it by hand but my army would look a far cry better than plain grey intermingled with primer black and the occasional good looking mini.
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Post by ilovethenids on Oct 14, 2014 21:18:59 GMT
The main issue would be figuring out the best way to have the machine apply paint to the model. 2D printers are very precise but that method just wouldn't work in 3D. There's also the issue of making sure that the 3D model has been aligned perfectly for the paintjob - if you've had it rotated slightly differently then it'd end up looking horribly distorted. You could perhaps have the machine make a sort of mold for when you're placing it in to be painted so that there isn't that risk of misalignment, but then you'd somehow have to have it painted while being held in the mold. Perhaps having created the mold, the thing applies paint in a mirrored pattern to what you've put in on the program to the inside of the mold, and then once you've got the model in there the paint sticks to the model, and since it's a mirror image on the mold it would be correct on the model. Problem is obviously that you'd have to figure out a way to make sure the ink/paint/whatever medium you use transfers completely to the model in a clean fashion. Plus you'd still have to figure out how to precisely apply the colors to the mold.
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Post by Mauler on Oct 15, 2014 11:04:07 GMT
Something like that wouldn't seem like stealing to me (which as far as I understand it is one of the main issues some people have with 3rd party sellers of 40k minis), since you're still buying the actual models. I don't think stealing is the right word. Buying a knock off product isn't stealing, it's buying a knock off product. For me, the issue is the direction you want the industry to head. If you want good products from a sustainable company, then purchase all you can from legitimate GW supplies. If that idea is too existential for you to sink your teeth into, then consider where you play. Do you have a local store you where you like to play? Give them all the business you can afford. After all, they pay for lights, wages, rental, and provide gaming space. That has a value. If you just play in your own basement with buds, that may not be an issue for you. Last night (I play at my local store at least 1x/week) I wanted to purchase some used DV cultists from them, but they were asking a lot more than I could get them on ebay. I went to the owner and showed him how much I could get them off ebay for and asked what he could do. I said I wanted to give him the business and was willing to pay more than ebay, but didn't want to pay that much. Guess what? he made the deal worthwhile and we both won. For me the relationships I have b/c of the store is worth something and I'm willing to put my money there to support them. I'm not trying to be the morality police, I'm just trying to help you think about what you value and how your actions can either support what you value or take from it. To be fair, it is a form of theft, making it stealing. You buy the model from GW, which entitles you to use it and that design which GW owns. When that design is copied, whether for commercial or personal use it's unauthorised use of a design owned by someone else, effectively taking it without permission. Buying a known copy is also supporting theft, as the design has been stolen for someone else's financial gain. As proven by the 8 & 16-bit computer games market in the late 80s and early 90s, piracy is a great way to cannibalise an industry; sales go down, prices go up to compensate because if people are already buying knock-offs for cheap (or free) they're hardly going to pay more for the genuine product and in the end businesses are less productive because they get less reward. Eventually so do the knock-off merchants because they're not the creative force that keeps the market evolving and people stop buying certain knock-offs as the product age increases and it loses it's rules or whatever. It's very similar to the Chapter House debacle; if FW stop producing specific models then rules for those models go in the bin under the current policy. It will happen, we've seen it happen already. Hell, even units with rules like Shrikes have their components taken out of production, FW management will have zero issues sidelining more expensive products that no longer sell well. Think very carefully about buying knock-offs because the gain isn't a long-term one. That's my take on it, but I'm not judging: people's situations are different, as are their reasons. While I believe that Forge World not only produce absolutely top-notch models they also bend over backwards to help you if anything is untoward with your purchase and so I support them as much as I'm able and I like to think that other people should too. The only time I've bought a copy is when FW stopped producing the said item and so wouldn't be getting my money anyway.
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Post by infornography on Oct 15, 2014 11:27:53 GMT
The main issue would be figuring out the best way to have the machine apply paint to the model. 2D printers are very precise but that method just wouldn't work in 3D. There's also the issue of making sure that the 3D model has been aligned perfectly for the paintjob - if you've had it rotated slightly differently then it'd end up looking horribly distorted. You could perhaps have the machine make a sort of mold for when you're placing it in to be painted so that there isn't that risk of misalignment, but then you'd somehow have to have it painted while being held in the mold. Perhaps having created the mold, the thing applies paint in a mirrored pattern to what you've put in on the program to the inside of the mold, and then once you've got the model in there the paint sticks to the model, and since it's a mirror image on the mold it would be correct on the model. Problem is obviously that you'd have to figure out a way to make sure the ink/paint/whatever medium you use transfers completely to the model in a clean fashion. Plus you'd still have to figure out how to precisely apply the colors to the mold. You are overcomplicating it. Just have a machine that is designed to lock in the base. Shouldn't be hard to do. Then have it 3d scan the model. 3D scanners are getting easier and easier to make along with 3d Printers. Then have it prime the model and paint it with an arm and a precision paint gun do the painting in layers. Leave the fine work to be done by hand, but get all the major work done by machine. If you don't need it to be too precise just rely on the machine for everything. It is entirely feasible but I would be surprised to see such a machine for anything near as cheap as $500. Still, if it were to happen I would snap one up.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 15, 2014 13:19:05 GMT
Buying a known copy is also supporting theft, as the design has been stolen for someone else's financial gain. As proven by the 8 & 16-bit computer games market in the late 80s and early 90s, piracy is a great way to cannibalise an industry; sales go down, prices go up to compensate because if people are already buying knock-offs for cheap (or free) they're hardly going to pay more for the genuine product and in the end businesses are less productive because they get less reward. Eventually so do the knock-off merchants because they're not the creative force that keeps the market evolving and people stop buying certain knock-offs as the product age increases and it loses it's rules or whatever. It's very similar to the Chapter House debacle; if FW stop producing specific models then rules for those models go in the bin under the current policy. It will happen, we've seen it happen already. Hell, even units with rules like Shrikes have their components taken out of production, FW management will have zero issues sidelining more expensive products that no longer sell well. Think very carefully about buying knock-offs because the gain isn't a long-term one. That's my take on it, but I'm not judging: people's situations are different, as are their reasons. While I believe that Forge World not only produce absolutely top-notch models they also bend over backwards to help you if anything is untoward with your purchase and so I support them as much as I'm able and I like to think that other people should too. The only time I've bought a copy is when FW stopped producing the said item and so wouldn't be getting my money anyway. I agree with most of what you say. Ethics is a social construct that is in part molded by societal shifts. Intellectual property being something that could be "owned" is a radically new idea that didn't show up outside of academic circles (and then you only had to give credit, not remuneration) until very recently in human history. When you buy knock offs you are not taking goods or materials from someone that you don't own or that aren't owned by the person you are buying them from. This issue is an issue of IP and that is an ethical question that has validity from both sides. Ethics aside, we as gamers must make decisions on what we want to support and where we want the industry to head. The industry isn't going away, but your wallets can help determine which directions it goes. In that, you and I are on the same page. However, since the issue of theft is not so cut and dry and calling it "stealing" or "theft" and is becoming increasingly a societal norm means that you are unlikely to sway people's behavior based on that line of reasoning. I think the argument about supporting local game stores and helping to shape the way the industry moves is a better way to get buy in. If GW continues to have policies that don't promote customer loyalty then their fate is sealed. You don't see people buying knockoff Apple products which proves that price is not the real issue.
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Post by Mauler on Oct 16, 2014 8:31:00 GMT
Buying a known copy is also supporting theft, as the design has been stolen for someone else's financial gain. As proven by the 8 & 16-bit computer games market in the late 80s and early 90s, piracy is a great way to cannibalise an industry; sales go down, prices go up to compensate because if people are already buying knock-offs for cheap (or free) they're hardly going to pay more for the genuine product and in the end businesses are less productive because they get less reward. Eventually so do the knock-off merchants because they're not the creative force that keeps the market evolving and people stop buying certain knock-offs as the product age increases and it loses it's rules or whatever. It's very similar to the Chapter House debacle; if FW stop producing specific models then rules for those models go in the bin under the current policy. It will happen, we've seen it happen already. Hell, even units with rules like Shrikes have their components taken out of production, FW management will have zero issues sidelining more expensive products that no longer sell well. Think very carefully about buying knock-offs because the gain isn't a long-term one. That's my take on it, but I'm not judging: people's situations are different, as are their reasons. While I believe that Forge World not only produce absolutely top-notch models they also bend over backwards to help you if anything is untoward with your purchase and so I support them as much as I'm able and I like to think that other people should too. The only time I've bought a copy is when FW stopped producing the said item and so wouldn't be getting my money anyway. I agree with most of what you say. Ethics is a social construct that is in part molded by societal shifts. Intellectual property being something that could be "owned" is a radically new idea that didn't show up outside of academic circles (and then you only had to give credit, not remuneration) until very recently in human history. When you buy knock offs you are not taking goods or materials from someone that you don't own or that aren't owned by the person you are buying them from. This issue is an issue of IP and that is an ethical question that has validity from both sides. Ethics aside, we as gamers must make decisions on what we want to support and where we want the industry to head. The industry isn't going away, but your wallets can help determine which directions it goes. In that, you and I are on the same page. However, since the issue of theft is not so cut and dry and calling it "stealing" or "theft" and is becoming increasingly a societal norm means that you are unlikely to sway people's behavior based on that line of reasoning. I think the argument about supporting local game stores and helping to shape the way the industry moves is a better way to get buy in. If GW continues to have policies that don't promote customer loyalty then their fate is sealed. You don't see people buying knockoff Apple products which proves that price is not the real issue. Very well put and I mostly agree. However, with Apple products, I just see people using Android instead these days. I work in a corporate technical field as a profession and I've always thought that Apple's stuff is grandiose overpriced pap. I had an iPod Nano on release, it died after two weeks, I got it replaced under warranty and prompty eBayed the rubbish thing. I find that price is usually the main issue, followed by quality. Apple are losing market share to other vendors producing Android phones. I see that as a rough analogue to players opting for a cheaper option for a product that does the same thing. The problem is that once people have turned to a cheaper source it's very difficult to pull them back to the official source unless it's the only place to get what they're after.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 16, 2014 13:15:21 GMT
Very well put and I mostly agree. However, with Apple products, I just see people using Android instead these days. I work in a corporate technical field as a profession and I've always thought that Apple's stuff is grandiose overpriced pap. I had an iPod Nano on release, it died after two weeks, I got it replaced under warranty and prompty eBayed the rubbish thing. I find that price is usually the main issue, followed by quality. Apple are losing market share to other vendors producing Android phones. I see that as a rough analogue to players opting for a cheaper option for a product that does the same thing. The problem is that once people have turned to a cheaper source it's very difficult to pull them back to the official source unless it's the only place to get what they're after. I think that the Apple analogy still works. Android exists precisely because of Apples iphone and ipad successes. While their % of market shares has fallen, the number of people using their products has grown. For the people that are "Apple people", they love and follow all things Apple. It's more a lifestyle choice than a product buy. I don't own a single Apple product. One of my desktops is a Linux and all smart phones in my home are Android (my life is too tied to Google products to even consider Apple). PP, X-wing, Wyrd, etc. wouldn't have stores where they could sell and promote their products if it wasn't for GW. GW needs to realize and expand their loyal fan base instead of kicking them in their teeth. Create brand loyalty and the "40K cult" that would grow would self monitor knock offs.
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Post by Silegy on Oct 17, 2014 19:50:42 GMT
Just a bit for some of the off-topic thats running here since like the very first page.
Stealing? Thats actually a good word. I honestly do feel like I am stealing from GW by buying minis on Yoymarket. Do I care? Hell, no. Lets put aside the fact I simply dont have money, which is actually a pretty big factor in my choice, but still. Look at GW website. Just how much do I have to pay for my yearly disappointment? I mean yes, I do buy from GW. I have some Termagants, Ill be buying their paints, codex, bla bla bla. I even had Dark Vengeance. But if there was no yoymart, I wouldnt even buy the codex. Not even the Termagants. Because 40k is just too expensive for me. And while you can say "Well,you cant afford it, you shouldnt do it" I can say "Hey, I bought the Termagants. Isnt some support better than none?" Also, there are like 3 gaming stores in my country, 2 of them are hilariously overpriced and zero of them are near to where I live.
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Post by ilovethenids on Oct 23, 2014 20:53:02 GMT
The main issue would be figuring out the best way to have the machine apply paint to the model. 2D printers are very precise but that method just wouldn't work in 3D. There's also the issue of making sure that the 3D model has been aligned perfectly for the paintjob - if you've had it rotated slightly differently then it'd end up looking horribly distorted. You could perhaps have the machine make a sort of mold for when you're placing it in to be painted so that there isn't that risk of misalignment, but then you'd somehow have to have it painted while being held in the mold. Perhaps having created the mold, the thing applies paint in a mirrored pattern to what you've put in on the program to the inside of the mold, and then once you've got the model in there the paint sticks to the model, and since it's a mirror image on the mold it would be correct on the model. Problem is obviously that you'd have to figure out a way to make sure the ink/paint/whatever medium you use transfers completely to the model in a clean fashion. Plus you'd still have to figure out how to precisely apply the colors to the mold. You are overcomplicating it. Just have a machine that is designed to lock in the base. Shouldn't be hard to do. Then have it 3d scan the model. 3D scanners are getting easier and easier to make along with 3d Printers. Then have it prime the model and paint it with an arm and a precision paint gun do the painting in layers. Leave the fine work to be done by hand, but get all the major work done by machine. If you don't need it to be too precise just rely on the machine for everything. It is entirely feasible but I would be surprised to see such a machine for anything near as cheap as $500. Still, if it were to happen I would snap one up. Problem for me at least is that the fine details are precisely what I can never really do well by hand. I have terribly shaky hands (due to a reduced number of Purkinje cells in my cerebellum), so in order to even do a half-decent job with details such as eyes or fancy lettering or tiny edge highlights I actually have to take a beta blocker. The main reason that's so frustrating is because the thing that's holding me back from being a truly good painter is physiological - no matter how much I practice or no matter how careful I am, these factors that are beyond my control make it impossible for me to get better. While my hand would still be shaky with a mouse, there's the fact that I'd be able to see exactly where I was putting the color before I applied it (due to lazy eye my gauging of where I'm putting the brush is not very good), I'd be able to adjust the size of the "brush" to however large or small I required, and if I accidentally messed up and got paint on the wrong space I could just click "Undo" and try again without worrying about the texture or whatever getting messed up from the prior layer. As for the whole "stealing" thing, personally I just don't really want to support GW's horrible game balance - I feel like they don't really deserve my money if they're going to make it so the only way I can be competitive with my force is to spam the only 2-5 units that are actually any good. I know it's not like I'm being "forced" to play or anything, but I enjoy the background and whatnot of 40K and since I CAN make it work by using my own homebrew rules and whatnot, I've done so.
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Post by pedro009 on Jan 3, 2016 18:29:55 GMT
Okay.
Just as a more recent thread was blocked.
I work with alot of lawyers (work as a heahunter) so I just asked one about copyright of models.
Massively varies from country to country but in general it tends to be if you sell it...you are breaking the law...If not ...we'll depends and can be determined by "fair use".
As GW don't own this site ...or any forum for that matter....Massive mess up there on there part...k don't think discussing this inappropriate. If ppl have moral concerns that for them to address.
Due to the rather unethic pricey hikes of GW. ..which cannot be justified and are othy there as they have almost monopoly of the market..k get a vast majority of my stuff from Ebay / bartertown.
I do ocasionaly support my local store but even then other stores just around the corner offer 25% off the exact same models.
Note I wud have put this on the other thread but as mentioned it got blocked
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Post by Shadowstalker on Jan 5, 2016 15:26:59 GMT
I have had the privilege of using a M3 Micro printer, which is a low-end 3d printer which is more affordable than most. I can say for a fact that the materials produced by this (and others) printer is not ideal for precision most want in their miniatures. 3D printers (less than $2000) are usually rather bad at creating anything that isn't rectangular or polygonal, so printing anything based around curves beyond basic circles is a difficult or impossible task. Anything that looks like the muscles and skin on Tyranid models or any others like them will be difficult to achieve, to say the least. Even being able to surmount that problem, quality is a massive issue as misprints, warping, and plain bad print quality are all real and common problems. In my experience, for every 3 or 4 prints, there is at least one print product that suffers one of the aforementioned defects. All in all, I don't think 3d printers will be that useful for printing models to game with for a while. That said, I find it useful for making IG/AM vehicle parts. I will soon be testing the limits of said printer further and can give my results to the hive if anyone cares. Cheers
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