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Post by biomega on Aug 31, 2014 21:35:56 GMT
Thanks gigasnail and Jabberwocky! Good to know. I was never too good at that stuff anyway.
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 1, 2014 6:42:27 GMT
At least you can still leapfrog the damaged models so you always keep a fresh model in the front. Make them last a tiny bit longer sometimes. Works better with Carnifexes.
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Post by jaysic on Sept 1, 2014 23:38:59 GMT
If you're running shrikes for H2H, they need to be kitted out (TS/AG/FH). The only thing I would skimp on would be Toxic Sacs, but then you're really limiting them as monster hunters.
I like to put a Barbed Strangler Shrike in front to soak the wounds. Puts him in slightly better range (36" after all), and allows him to tank the wounds (he has 1 less attack in H2H anyway). In my "Shrike Blitz" list I run 3 squads of 4. 3 with RC, 1 with a BS, and one with LW/BS.
I also like the 5 squad with just the RC for 46 points a piece, which seem to be the best TEQ units we have for H2H, though I haven't run the math on the Dimamamamam yet.
This Saturday I ran a unit of 3 with LW/BS. They killed Ahriman (Tzeentch Chaos special char) and his full unit of chosen on the charge. They also killed a Seerstar (Farseer, 6 Warlocks all on bikes) with 3 instant death wounds to spare.
Most importantly, regarding shrikes, is that they need to get into combat effectively. This usually involves at least 100 points of support units to help them be delivered. Venomthrope + hormagaunts do this job nicely, as does a nearby venomthrope. I love love love running these guys in my lists. They rarely take fire as my opponent is too busy shooting my big bugs to pay them much attention. Assuming I can keep a unit alive turn 1 they usually get First Blood at top of turn 2, assuming I have that luxury.
Edit; And for those keeping count that is 6 tournies in less than 30 days...3 of those being at Gencon.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 2, 2014 5:48:59 GMT
Note: When I'm talking about Wound Allocation shenanigans in 7th, I'm talking about the Wounds you are dealing out in CC. In each Init step, they have to start Allocating from a Model in BtB with someone who Attacked at that Init step. So if you've only got one Shrike with BS/LW in BtB, that's going to be the only Model in BtB attacking at I7, and all Wound Allocation at the I7 step has to start with whoever that Shrike is BtB with. It's not about defense, it's about sniping out the other dude's special guys.
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Post by coredump on Sept 2, 2014 7:07:59 GMT
which is why you want the first LWBS shrike in base with the target, and the second LWBS shrike engaged in the fight but not in base contact.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 2, 2014 7:32:53 GMT
Exactly. But there were a couple of responses in there that apparently only saw the phrase "Wound Allocation shenanigans" and thought I was going back to 5th Ed stuff.
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Post by forteh on Sept 2, 2014 9:21:21 GMT
How do you ensure that only one lw/bs shrike is in BtB? I presume you can use a flock of gargs to tie up all the free bases bar one, but surely if the gargs roll higher than the required charge distance then they must wrap around the target in an attempt to get in BtB/engagement which may prevent the shrikes getting BTB.
Obviously things like terrain, charge distances and size of target unit will affect the above.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 2, 2014 9:59:04 GMT
You have, say, 3 RC Shrikes and then 2 with BS/LW. Unless it's a really big Squad that you're Charging, it's usually pretty easy to arrange things so that only 4 of those will be able to make it into BtB. After the first one Moves, place the others so that they're like 35mm from the one next to them, spread out as much as possible without leaving a gap that the last 40mm base can fit through. You can get those first 4 stretched out into something like a 10" line without leaving a gap that the last one can fit through, which will probably be enough unless you got a 12" Charge or something, especially since that last BS/LW dude is probably going to be coming from the back.
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 2, 2014 13:03:52 GMT
I was under the impression that if you have several multi-wound models in btb with an enemy model in close combat, you have to allocate wounds to any wounded model first. But in my last game my opponent said you can pick any model in btb and allocate wounds to it, you don't have to start with the wounded model.
That can make an important difference in games with lots of multi-wound models and grinding combats.
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Post by Hive Fleet Ragnorok on Sept 2, 2014 14:19:51 GMT
I think people are so used to doing it that way (allocating to wounded models first) that they just continue the trend... however, the rules specify (well, in 6th, I've barely read the 7th book, but there are so few changes... meh) that you allocate to the *nearest* model, all other factors ignored (barring LoS!, etc). If two or more are tied, the owning player chooses.
Typically this means that, in a combat, you can just pull some random dudes that are in BtB and you're fine. However this, obviously, opens some serious potential with multi-wound models in combat, which is why, I think, we pay such a premium. If you have 3 warriors in base, and take 3 wounds, there is NOTHING stopping you from allocating 1 wound to each.
It's the same principle as maneuvering fresh models to the front to take fire, however that's harder to do with a unit that only moves 6".
It is, though, enough to make me want to give a brood of 5 or so another go.... barring S8, they can really tank combat just by sheer wounds, and still put out reasonable (not great, but moderate) combat damage with a pair of Claws.
If you ignore S8+ weaponry, Warriors are actually a pretty decent supporting troop unit. The problem, obviously, that you can't do that, and it's such a massively glaring problem that utterly decimates the unit... blah blah, #nidsarewhiners.
Still. I wonder.... the day that I can get warriors to run viably is the day I'm extremely happy.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 2, 2014 14:41:24 GMT
Not quite. In CC, when you start Allocating Wounds in each Init Step, you can pick any Model in BtB to start with, treating that as the "closest", regardless of whether or not there are other Wounded Models in the Unit. But once you've picked it, that remains the "closest" Model until either it's dead, or all the Wounds from that Init Step have been Allocated.
So if you take 3 Wounds at I4, you've got to put them all on the same Warrior, you can't spread them around. But if you take one Wound from a Character at I5, one from the basic Squaddies at I4, and then a third from a Power Axe at I1, you can Allocate each of those separately, because it resets for each Init Step.
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Post by coredump on Sept 2, 2014 15:41:51 GMT
I was under the impression that if you have several multi-wound models in btb with an enemy model in close combat, you have to allocate wounds to any wounded model first. But in my last game my opponent said you can pick any model in btb and allocate wounds to it, you don't have to start with the wounded model. That is mostly correct, with the 7th changes it is even more broken up. It used to be the model selected for allocation resets with each new wound pool; it still is, except now there can be multiple wound pools in the same init step. So if on Init 4 you get hit by some chainswords, and some power mauls, and some force swords.... those are three different pools. If each does one wound, you could allocate them onto 3 different warriors. (or not, however you want) The only caveat is the warrior allocated to must be in base with one of the enemy models that is attacking at Init 4. It does not matter which model, as long as it attacked that init step. So you can allocate the force sword attack on the warrior in base with the chainsword.... "my opponent said you can pick any model in btb" This is the part that isn't correct, you can pick any model that is in btb with an enemy model attacking at that Init step. This is what allows LWBS shrikes to 'snipe' out target models. The LWBS shrike is the only model attacking at I7, and thus all wounds must go on the model it is in base contact with. (If a second shrike is also attacking, but not in base contact, his wounds get added to the same pool, and thus onto the same target, regardless of where the shrike is located.)
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Post by coredump on Sept 2, 2014 15:48:48 GMT
Typically this means that, in a combat, you can just pull some random dudes that are in BtB and you're fine. However this, obviously, opens some serious potential with multi-wound models in combat, which is why, I think, we pay such a premium. If you have 3 warriors in base, and take 3 wounds, there is NOTHING stopping you from allocating 1 wound to each. That is only legal if they came from 3 different wound pools, normally it does not work that way. Not quite. In CC, when you start Allocating Wounds in each Init Step, you can pick any Model in BtB to start with, treating that as the "closest", regardless of whether or not there are other Wounded Models in the Unit. But once you've picked it, that remains the "closest" Model until either it's dead, or all the Wounds from that Init Step have been Allocated. So if you take 3 Wounds at I4, you've got to put them all on the same Warrior, you can't spread them around. But if you take one Wound from a Character at I5, one from the basic Squaddies at I4, and then a third from a Power Axe at I1, you can Allocate each of those separately, because it resets for each Init Step. It used to 'work' that way. The rule in 6th was still based on wound pools, but there was only 1 pool per Init step. (different 'types' of shots were handled separately, but still part of the same pool) In 7th, they have made wounds with different Strengths, AP values or special rules, into separate wound pools. But you are still only required to stay with the same target model for each wound pool.
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Post by Mauler on Sept 2, 2014 16:50:45 GMT
Yup, it's the same mechanism which makes 3 Ripper Swarms in assault more effective than 12 models with a single wound each.
(To pre-empt the Swarms USR: it doesn't apply when all bases are in contact; only when one is closer than the rest as per the assault rules)
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Post by biomega on Sept 2, 2014 16:51:59 GMT
OK, but warrior bases are larger than humanoid bases. So what if I have a LWBS Shrike in B2B with a Multi-wound MEQ and two other guys and I get lucky and score three wounds? Can my opponent take the wounds off the other two first before taking one off his multi-wound guy?
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