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Post by jaysic on Aug 22, 2014 2:44:12 GMT
Depends on the rest of your list and how many points you're playing at. I think that 3 is extreme high end, and 4 is right out. That being said, 4 Carnifex at 600 points is DOABLE, but your list is going to have to be built around getting them where they need to be. How you equip them and their roles will change if it's worth it or not.
I'd say 2 adrenal, base fexen, + 2 specialized (SC, AG/CC, Dakkafex) would be still very extreme, but still viable. I'd test out 3 for sure before going around and messing with 4.
What does the rest of your list look like?
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Post by Squire on Aug 22, 2014 7:24:46 GMT
I'm exploring anti armour options to finish off a list and could stretch to about 170 points with a bit of trimming. Everything seems so unsatisfactory though. An exocrine is appealing for utility against 2+ saves and even light infantry with its large blast, but filling that HS support slot means I can't just pop my mawloc in when I play at 2000 points unless I drop endless swarm, and a horde of respawning gaunts really appeals to me. It also mean my two dakkafex would have to be fielded together which could be an IB issue. Hive guard seem like an okay option but its so annoying that you have to take three to do what two of them did in the last codex, and they have no real utility beyond shooting vehicles. A crone would be great if only it wasn't so god damn big. I don't want every game of 40k to turn into a major logistical operation, as fun as I imagine it would be to field. A CC/dev fex is something I'd really like to model and paint but I don't like its chances of reaching combat and a single extra set of devs isn't really hitting the spot when I'm looking for ranged anti armour with potential to hurt AV13/14 Zoans... urgh... maybe it's time to dust off the zoans I just don't like TL-D (personal taste, not that I think they're bad or shouldn't be taken) and find that the other Fex options fill a role that my type of loadout sorely needs, as well as being the 'optimal' loadout in general, if you know for a fact that you'll be facing the type of targets they want to smash. A single pair of devs and crushing claws? With two or three fexes you have enough dakka to hose down vehicles and then S10 armourbane when you get in close. From an aesthetic POV it's got giant claws. Seems like a decent compromise
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Post by Yautja on Aug 22, 2014 10:02:09 GMT
I just don't like TL-D (personal taste, not that I think they're bad or shouldn't be taken) and find that the other Fex options fill a role that my type of loadout sorely needs, Well this is obviously the crux of the debate. You're having to work out other options because of personal preference, not because of optimal selection. A 165p Dakka Fex truly is 'good' at everything, so is perfect for all-comers lists in which you do not know your opposition in advance. A 4W MC that pumps out 12 TL S6 shots that can perform a Fleeted S10 assault. There isn't really an aspect of the game it is bad at. Good strength shooting at a high capacity means it can cause surprises even in Overwatch and Skyfire situations. Any other spec load-out is sub-optimal to this. 7ed is a shooting game. The better your shooting ability prior to getting into assault range the better. CC weapons do nothing in the first couple of turns. PS - opponents never expect Dakkafex to have AG either. They're always unpleasantly surprised when I re-roll my charge dice and facepalm when I point out they're hitting their vehicle @ S10
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Post by Squire on Aug 22, 2014 10:26:25 GMT
Dakkafex with AG is a quality build. Nothing in our list comes close in terms of utility- not since 7th ed killed the dakka flyrant's ability to charge and smash
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Post by novo on Aug 22, 2014 15:15:41 GMT
Depends on the rest of your list and how many points you're playing at. I think that 3 is extreme high end, and 4 is right out. That being said, 4 Carnifex at 600 points is DOABLE, but your list is going to have to be built around getting them where they need to be. How you equip them and their roles will change if it's worth it or not. I'd say 2 adrenal, base fexen, + 2 specialized (SC, AG/CC, Dakkafex) would be still very extreme, but still viable. I'd test out 3 for sure before going around and messing with 4. What does the rest of your list look like? I'm still assembling, and I am about halfway through: - 1 Tyrant w/wings, TLDev, regen (Assembled) - 1 Zoanthrope (Assembled) - 24 Hormagaunts w/AG (halfway) - 24 Termigaunts w/Dev (halfway) - 16 Genestealers (halfway) - 10 Gargoyles - 3 Warriors 2x Deathspitter, 1 Barbed Strangler (Assembled) - 3 Warriors 2x Deathspitter, 1 Barbed Strangler - 1 Carnifex w/2x Scything Talons, Bioplasma (Assembled) I still have 2 more Carnifex kits as well. I was definitely going to give one crushing claws and bioplasma and stick him with the screamer killer. Still debating on the third.
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Carnifex
Aug 22, 2014 16:24:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by jaysic on Aug 22, 2014 16:24:07 GMT
I just don't like TL-D (personal taste, not that I think they're bad or shouldn't be taken) and find that the other Fex options fill a role that my type of loadout sorely needs, Well this is obviously the crux of the debate. You're having to work out other options because of personal preference, not because of optimal selection. A 165p Dakka Fex truly is 'good' at everything, so is perfect for all-comers lists in which you do not know your opposition in advance. A 4W MC that pumps out 12 TL S6 shots that can perform a Fleeted S10 assault. There isn't really an aspect of the game it is bad at. Good strength shooting at a high capacity means it can cause surprises even in Overwatch and Skyfire situations. Any other spec load-out is sub-optimal to this. 7ed is a shooting game. The better your shooting ability prior to getting into assault range the better. CC weapons do nothing in the first couple of turns. PS - opponents never expect Dakkafex to have AG either. They're always unpleasantly surprised when I re-roll my charge dice and facepalm when I point out they're hitting their vehicle @ S10 I think there's a misunderstanding. I can't type up a.full response until my lunch break, but the basics are this; -I choose to not use any TL-D on anything from a stylistic stand point. This is hard line. -Dakkafex is not optimal against AV14. It's not useless, but not optimal. the versality the dakkafex offers is not needed in lists I run. I have anti horde. I have anti transport. I don't have anti AV14. Other Fexen handle this much better than Dakkafex, so why would I run a dakkafex? The only other anti AV14 is haywire hive guard, crones(haywire), and GCs. Even then, none of these can single handedly deal with AV14 the way a CC/AG or SC fex can, not even the dakkafex. My personal preferences do not change that fact. I'm not saying dakkafex shouldn't be taken or is bad, just that other load outs are much better for a dedicated AV14 busting role. The things dakkafex is versatile at can easily be filled by many things in our dex. The same cannot be said for CCAG fex or SC fex
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Post by Yautja on Aug 22, 2014 17:03:05 GMT
I'd argue against your wording of a Fex with CC being "much better" against AV14 as a AG Fex has a 50% chance to glance per hit anyway, but that's just me being picky.
How the rest of the argument goes is very dependant on your list. I sport Flyrant (Grubs), Crone, Tervigon (CC & Grubs), Hive Guard (naff chance) and 2 Dakkafex.
My point being, by the time my Fex assault a Land Raider for example, if I haven't already managed to damage it, the game is probably a lost cause.
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Carnifex
Aug 22, 2014 17:05:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by Jabberwocky on Aug 22, 2014 17:05:19 GMT
I think you need to stop looking at Av14 in a vacuum.
If you are assaulting a Landraider, it has either a) just released a Dedicated assault unit into your lines or b) is just about to.
This means you either need to kill that assault unit first anyway, which is best done with mass fire, e.g. From a dakkafex or you need to have something that can threaten that assault unit when on the receiving end of a charge, which would be the dakkafex again.
If you have already killed their assault unit and are mopping up the Landraider, then yes that stonecrusher is the best option.
When are you honestly more worried about 3 guns from a Dedicated survivable tank than a 400 point assault/command unit right in front of your support units?
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Carnifex
Aug 22, 2014 17:25:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by jaysic on Aug 22, 2014 17:25:56 GMT
Yau; Yes, I'm sure a dakkafex will finish off a half dead LR just fine. As far as other load outs being "much better" against AV14? I did the math on posted the tables on the previous page. They are much better, even after I adjusted dakkafex for having AG. I'm sure with ESG and a crone you don't need to 1 shot a LReq like I do. I also run HIVE GUARD bit iI can't imagine a LR being their best target.
Jabber; 400 point assault unit? Not worried about it. If it doesn't have storm shields I'll murder them in assault before they hit me. If they do have storm shields I can tarpit them with OS gants. This unit is easily dealt with.
The LR though? If it's sitting on an objective I have to be able to move it off. Enter the Carnifex.
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Carnifex
Aug 22, 2014 17:45:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by Jabberwocky on Aug 22, 2014 17:45:48 GMT
It won't likely be easy to tarpit a unit that assaults straight out of the transport from any of it's doors.
If your Fex is close enough to assault next turn, it'll probably even get murdered itself especially since without the charge for HoW and with no invulnerable it'll be little more than a speedbump to a dedicated assault unit, especially hammernators and the like.
Personally I'll steer clear of landraiders until I can counter assault whatever comes out, though that usually means sacrificing a tasty support unit or taking it on the chin with one of my strongest units.
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Carnifex
Aug 22, 2014 19:13:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by jaysic on Aug 22, 2014 19:13:24 GMT
Meh, with a bubble wrap (which all assault unit should have) they can't assault the fex. Admittedly something else could shoot a hole into the gants, if they have LOS past the LR and closest to the grants that are directly between the assault unit and the fex, and they hit/wound/I fail shrouded save. Then yes, they could assault the fex. If the LR shoots the grants then they have a 3+ cover from intervening models and shrouded.
On the other hand, if they're still in the LR, I can wrap my unit around it, destroy it with the fex, and kill everything inside by covering the exit hatches (hoping it doesn't explode!)
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Carnifex
Aug 22, 2014 21:49:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by gigasnail on Aug 22, 2014 21:49:54 GMT
If it's an assault unit in a LR, it's going to have some combination of power weapons at I1 and S6-8, power weapons at higher than 2I, and/or storm shields. This is pretty much a given.
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Post by Yautja on Aug 23, 2014 9:04:04 GMT
Just go old school! Two sets of Talons, AG and Bio-Plasma
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Post by Squire on Aug 23, 2014 11:46:09 GMT
I quite like the tervigon EG and CC build for anti AV14. Obviously a carnifex built to total land raiders is better at that specific role and has a lot else going for it, but the tervigon brings other benefits to the table. OS if you have the gaunts, some more spawned gaunts, synapse, fills a mandatory troop slot, it's a level 1 psyker and isn't much more points per wound than a 135 point fex. Personally I'd prefer warriors and two zoans but that's only an easy decision for me because my terms are all in an endless swarm formation
By the way, how about zoanthropes? For little more than a stock fex with CC you've got three zoanthropes, or two and some points saved. I don't like them much since the change to psychic powers but if you've got the elite slots to run them individually it gives you a load more warp charges and might even let you save points elsewhere on synapse units. If you're set on not taking devourers I can see the appeal of a CC/ST fex because of the near guaranteed devastation if you get the charge vs the frustration of jumping through all the hoops of hitting warp lances. OTOH a warp lance hitting a land raider is like super haywire- 2 to glance, 3+ to penetrate, and you don't need to charge it to do that damage.
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Post by Freeman on Aug 23, 2014 12:30:50 GMT
I think most of this comes down to your meta. Truthfully in the last year or so of playing regularly both at a club and in tournaments I've come up against av14 all round once. Admittedly he had two land raiders and I was boned but the point being in every other of the games dakka fex were the better option as the flexibility to deal with AV14 would have been wasted.
If Landraiders, monoliths etc are part of your meta and you expect to regularly come up against them then I can see crushing claws and one set of BL devourers being a really good option. Especially if you are running broods as you can get away with having one set of Crushing Claws in the brood to keep him safe.
Be interesting to see how much of a thing objective secured land raiders become though.
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