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Post by OD from TV on Aug 21, 2014 16:04:08 GMT
Good to see you too Chuckles. The army wide mutation is a good idea, one that I could theoretically see GW do if they were to release a Hive Fleet Behemoth or Hive Fleet Kraken book ala the Iyanden Codex, although I unfortunately doubt that other books like the Iyanden one will be released (a shame, as add on codex's went while it was the first its still sadly the best despite the horrible fluff and scant three pages or so of rules). We can hope, but for the most part I think GW has abandoned Nids for the moment like they did DE for quite some time. Perhaps they'll give us back some fun customizability, but I suppose it wouldn't be GW if the fans didn't have something to gribble about. Thanks Yautja, and sorry for making you miss the Leaping Warriors. Everyone's area is different, but here in Cali everywhere I played or saw Nids being played at the time I heard or experienced a discussion similar to the one I described. I didn't hear too many people bring up Adrenal Glands, but there was one instance in my memory about someone claiming that you couldn't bring both the WS and Ini Adrenal Glands Davor while I do remember hearing some complaints from the Eldar crowd, I wasn't one of them. True I might be getting my editions a little mixed up, but the reintroduction of Harlequins, finally releasing a model for the Wave Serpent, bringing back Doom, and Jetbike Troops for all brought a lot of happiness. Yes Biel Tan got dropped by the wayside, and Alaitioc armies both lost the Disruption Table 2extra Troop choices and a raising of the minimum squad size of Ranger/Pathfinders to 5, but overall the reception and critique I remember on Eldar being positive. CSM was a joke and I still know people complaining about the removal of the Legion rules, but for the most part I didn't and don't see 5th as a taming down of rules, heck 5th introduced the first Flyer, the IG Valkyre/Vendetta which if I'm remembering correctly was the first box that you could build your choice of two different units with instead of just one. Certain choices seem limited or changed with every new Edition/Codex of an army, but for the most part I don't think 5th was a super pairdown (exceptions being CSM and Nids). One of the things I've noticed people who aren't Nid Players not getting is that they'll go on about how amazingly cheap our gribblies are, and downplay their drawbacks by saying you can just keep them in Synapse, without taking into account just how badly overprices all our Synapse Units are. Exactly that Westrider, commentators that don't play that army never see the downsides, in fact I'd say they only focus on point cost and the basic weapon being carried. I even remember some commenter at the release of this current codex talk about the awesomeness of the Strangleweb, something that still boggles my mind. It is a common problem with cruddex, an overestimation of a mc's close combat prowess and durability. I think that overestimation isn't just Cruddace's problem, I think that a lot of people on the design team make that mistake. Of course I don't think Phil Kelly does/did, he was the one afterall who originally gave Nids the option to take 3 Heavy and 3 Elite Fexs back in the day. And at by far the most reasonably costed MC in the past decade (at least in my opinion). MC's are far from scary, they are like walking tanks that can assault, but tanks aren't that scary either. Just throw Str7+ at it, and we all know that most armies are toting that out in the extreme for a take all comers list. I suspect we've already invested more time in this thread than GW did in development for the new Tyranid Codex. It must have been a very short brain storming meeting at GW for them to decide the plan for the new codex was: delete some entries, add two Flyers and cut and paste the rest. HA! Probably true, although I'd imagine there being a little more debate than just that. I can see one or two people standing up and saying "Nids are too strong in the assault, we must tone them down for the Space Marine players to have a chance" and then a bunch of people nodding in agreement, with perhaps Phil Kelly knocking himself unconscious from repeatedly hitting his head on the table. At least that's how I imagine it. He's the only writer on staff that I know of that wants Xenos armies to have a chance instead of bending over backwards for the Imperials. I would rather see those rules applied to all armies via the main rule book. GW need to evolve and improve the rules instead of regurgitating old ones, just for the sake of recycling the meta. GW not copy pasting? What kind of world would that be? I'd think one without the copy-paste function on a computer, but its doubtful that will ever happen. the main problem GW has to first figure out is the philosophy of tyranids and how they function. How do the units move to the attack? How do they attack? What ways would units work together? etc, etc. Once this is done and you envision how the army moves and attacks you make the rules/units work that way - the whole army has to be examined - not isolated units. This! I may not have seen the article you are referencing biomassbob, but the nail is struck firmly on the head. Nids shouldn't function like any other army, in fact with the exception of SM and CSM no army should function the same, that's kinda one of the points of having multiple armies, excuse me Factions in the game. In the end I think the 40k community as a whole probably can invent a million ways to improve upon the current Nid codex, or any codex for that matter. Perhaps if we get lucky, the next author (or group of authors now since its a committee) will take notice and implement some of our ideas. It could happen. Peace ~OD
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Post by Mauler on Aug 21, 2014 17:12:27 GMT
Carrying on from my terrain mini-rant, I think another issue that we (and other assault forces) suffer from is the damn creppy weapon skill table. A Lictor with twice the WS of a Guardsman SHOULD have greater difference in hitting a Guardsman than the human hitting it than 16%. The table is pretty rubbish. The ranges need to be wider to make high and low WS values and the differences between them mean something. A WS2 papling shouldn't have a 33% chance of landing a hit on a WS10 Skill-boss. Seriously, if I was hammered out of my nut and got into a fight with a proper ninja would I be able to land a hit? Barely. Would the ninja evade my flailing and do me like a kipper? Damn straight. Equal WS should always be 50%, that's fine. It's the scaling either side that's annoying. Bung some 2+ and 6s in there, GW. Damn.
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Post by gingerwerewolf on Aug 21, 2014 17:39:32 GMT
There are so many inspired ideas for nids that could be made to work. Someone had an idea about massed gaunts sacrificing themselves to try to immobilze a vehicle - same with gargoyles vs a flyer. So much potential for flavourful, fluffy ideas. That was one of my ideas from ages ago - it ended up being a complicated mechanic but it made sense from a fluff point of view: A couple of Ideas I thought of was that our main enemy was Overwatch, and Charging through cover. - The Idea I came up with for Overwatch was when you declare a charge with certain creatures, those creatures only remove the casulties caused by Overwatch after the combat has been resolved. IE You may kill them when they are charging, but you still have to fight 1 round against them. My thoughts here are all MCs (Especially Carnifexs) and creatures that are too frenzied to know better - Hormagants.
- (As an aside I also wanted to change the Acid Blood Biomorph to cause a number of hits on the overwatching unit. You kill them, but the acid from their death sprays all over you, make an initiative test or take a wound, armour saves taken as normal.)
- The other thing was that Tyranids could sacrifice 1 attack to fight at initiative if they passed through terrain. This could be the attack gained from charging. If this leaves them unable to attack (ie 0 attacks) they are unable to use this ability
I also came up a a Sacrificial Hordes rule back in 5th and wacked it on Warseer www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?340598-Tyranid-Sacrificial-Hordes&highlight=Sacrificial+hordesOne of the ideas from that 4chan list was that you could sacrifice a Pyrovore to make it explode. I liked that
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Post by gingerwerewolf on Aug 21, 2014 17:44:51 GMT
It would certainly make it so that Trygons couldn't have the "Bring a small army in from reserve" business. But the dedicated transport idea brings problems of its own. That means that Trygons are no longer Heavy Support in that sense. Dunno if that would make too many problems, but something to consider. Why does it mean that they are not Heavy Support? Look to the Space Wolf Codex to the Stormwolf & Stormfang. They are Dedicated Transports but equally they are Fast Attack and Heavy Support Respectively
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Post by nairolf on Aug 21, 2014 18:02:50 GMT
Hormigon - like Tervigon but for HGaunts Warrior Prime not HQ but Warrior upgrade
And a huge worm like creature that acts as transport
JUST SOME TRANSPORT!
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Post by Shadowstalker on Aug 21, 2014 19:29:03 GMT
Meh, I'd like them to bring back Mycetic Spores, and just rename them to "Mieotic Spores". Yes, they're separate creatures in the fluff, but seriously. It was stupid for them to take them away in the first place.
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Post by mit45 on Aug 21, 2014 22:23:11 GMT
I've always thought there should be a mechanic allowing a large swarm of gaunts to take on a tank. It's what prevents is really from taking an exclusively horde army. Instead of relying on a Carnifex's maybe getting to the tank, bring 30 more gaunts. I believe it would be an insanely fun mechanic, and true to the fluff. I like to imagine that they don't magically get more strength and pierce the hull. But the bodies clog the exhaust, a scything talon slices a tank tread, a gaunt bights off a bolt, their dead bodies muck up the lubrication of the system and cause it to seize, after dozens of bodies this would take it's toll on the tank and cause it to break down. Based on this imagining, I'd think f a rule where maybe you could sacrifice bodies to make an attack equal to the combined strengths of the sacrificed models. I.e. 1 S9 attack with Termagaunts would require the sacrifice of 3 Termagaunts (or maybe 6, double the units you need to sacrifice incase just 1:1 is OP)
Speaking of op, my impression /tg/ codex is that I goes to far and most units are op. (or maybe I'm so used to being underpowered, that any competitive unit seems op).
Disclaimer: entirely typed on my phone
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Post by Shadowstalker on Aug 21, 2014 23:07:40 GMT
I realize the /tg/ Codex isn't perfect by far; I just thought it would give interesting ideas as well as a different viewpoint. I definitely like the idea for a swarm being able to stand a chance against vehicles.
They came at our Leman Russ as though it were a tin can, and tried anything to get at us. The horrid creatures quickly found the engine vent and ripped away to the machine. Our driver had to abandon his area, as the mass of scythed claws were lashing at him through the viewport. We are doomed.
That sort of thing.
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Post by mit45 on Aug 21, 2014 23:40:00 GMT
Well it was written by one man, it's bound to be imperfect. Even the most perfect document in the world, the United States constitution, took a group of men and a few amendments. But it does have some good ideas, specifically I'd like some official Dominatrix rules and a model . And I'm not saying your idea was any less valid, I mean we're both just two Internet people after all. And yeah the fluff does specify gaunts disabling a tank somehow, we should be able to do it!
Really I just want to take 30 minute long movement phases because I brought 300 gaunts...
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Post by Shadowstalker on Aug 22, 2014 0:14:06 GMT
That's both a lot of gaunts and a long movement phase. XD One of my friends and I agree that if one of us gets wealthy enough, we will create a 6' x 14' table, and play a game where he gets defenses, and I get to assault with 2x the points, meaning; probably at least 1000 points of gaunts... Imagine that.
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Post by Megad00mer on Aug 25, 2014 20:44:52 GMT
I think the current book is workable, but lots of missed opportunities and poor rules writing abound. Here’s what I would change/fix
Synapse: While Fearless is nice, Synapse feels more like “avoiding punishment” rather than any kind of bonus. It offers very little benefit in relation to the glaring weakness it gives our army. In addition to Fearless, units should also gain an additional benefit so long as they are within synapse range, based on the Instinctive Behavior of the unit. Echoing the “6” result on each IB table. Kind of the Hive Mind enhancing the basic biology and function of the creatures.
Feed: Gains Rage Hunt: Gains Preferred Enemy on Shooting attacks Lurk: Gains Stealth
These bonuses also make the terribly punishing Instinctive Behavior tables we currently have a bit easier to swallow as there is definite risk/reward to being in Synapse rather than just a punishment heaped on top of a punishment.
Warlord Traits: 1-Natures Bane – Place a Twisted Copse (or similar sized) terrain marker anywhere on the board after both sides have deployed but before the first turn. All enemy units count this as Dangerous Terrain.
2- Nocturnal Predator: May declare Night Fight on Turn 1. No need to roll. Warlord and all friendly Tyranid units in it’s Synapse Range gain Night Vision
3- Synaptic Lynchpin – Fine as is.
4- Mind Eater – Fine as is.
5- Digestive Denial – Selected Terrain feature also becomes Dangerous to enemy units.
6 – Adaptive Biology – Gains FnP (4+) immediately after suffering it’s first unsaved wound. (FnP cannot negate this wound)
Unit Changes: Hive Tyrants and Tervigons should also be able to take Biomancy
Hive Tyrants without Wings need an option for a 2+ armor save again.
Swarmlord should gain a 2+ save and/or a 4+ inv at all times.
Tyranid Primes. Down to 80pts but have a 4+ save. Gain the option for Wings,(30pts) becoming Jump Infantry (Character) or Serpentine, (20pts) becoming Beasts (Character) and gaining Deep Strike. Primes without Wings can take a 3+ save for 15pts. Alpha Warrior should also effect Ravener Broods.
Pyrovores gain Torrent.
Lictors: Enemy models can only fire Snap Shots at Lictors during the turn they deploy from Deep Strike reserve. Gain Prey Adaptation like the Malanthrope. (they, and any friendly Tyranid units within 6” gain Preferred Enemy once they kill a unit)
Haruspex: down to 140pts. Rapacious Hunger works every turn, not just the turn it charges.
Hive Guard: down to 50pts a model
Genestealers down to 10pts a model, gain Stealth. Broodlord is 50pts.
Mawlocs, Trygons and Trygon Primes can move 12” in the movement phase. (Serpentine)
-Subterranean Assault: For Each Trygon (or Trygon Prime) in your army that will be arriving via Deep Strike Reserve, nominate a single friendly Tyranid unit of Infantry or Beasts in reserve and in the same detachment as the Trygon. Each unit should be associated with a specific Trygon. Mark this on your army roster and inform your opponent. Do not make reserve rolls for the associated units. Instead, when the Trygon arrives via Deep Strike reserve, once it's final position is determined, it's associated unit automatically arrives from reserve and is placed wholly within 6" of the Trygon's base. The unit may not move or assault this turn but may shoot or run.
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Post by biomassbob on Aug 25, 2014 21:26:11 GMT
Megad00mer, interesting stuff. I certainly like the serpentine option for tyranid primes and I think we have discussed this before on other threads. This and wings for the tyranid prime were certainly a missed opportunity. This would make raveners much more useful. And I like the subterranean assault rule - finally the trygon tunnel in the dex becomes useful! These changes could so easily be made in an errata that would help so provide so many options for nids. I would also like to see the weapon biomorphs addressed so that devourers are not the only obvious option for fexes and tyrants. As someone else indicated change the range of deathspitters to 24" - give it something so that it is not always ignored. And venom cannons I would like to see go back to shots instead of the blast.
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Post by arapaima on Aug 26, 2014 3:01:34 GMT
Carrying on from my terrain mini-rant, I think another issue that we (and other assault forces) suffer from is the damn creppy weapon skill table. A Lictor with twice the WS of a Guardsman SHOULD have greater difference in hitting a Guardsman than the human hitting it than 16%. The table is pretty rubbish. The ranges need to be wider to make high and low WS values and the differences between them mean something. A WS2 papling shouldn't have a 33% chance of landing a hit on a WS10 Skill-boss. Seriously, if I was hammered out of my nut and got into a fight with a proper ninja would I be able to land a hit? Barely. Would the ninja evade my flailing and do me like a kipper? Damn straight. Equal WS should always be 50%, that's fine. It's the scaling either side that's annoying. Bung some 2+ and 6s in there, GW. Damn. I personally felt this way as well. If good old me and my bros go up against Mushashi who give us the chance to try and land 10 strokes before making his move, he will probably parry/evade all our amateur attempt to scratch him before hitting us. This will also make that WS8 on tyrant or certain dark eldar HQ super valuable as some kind of damage mitigation without needing the mandatory flat 4++ to be super nasty in HTH. Yes the save is better, thats why every heavy melee unit in recorded history wear heavy as (please do not swear) all armor before the advent of gunpowder and why we pay 20+ pts for them.
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Post by Megad00mer on Aug 26, 2014 3:29:33 GMT
Megad00mer, interesting stuff. I certainly like the serpentine option for tyranid primes and I think we have discussed this before on other threads. This and wings for the tyranid prime were certainly a missed opportunity. This would make raveners much more useful. And I like the subterranean assault rule - finally the trygon tunnel in the dex becomes useful! These changes could so easily be made in an errata that would help so provide so many options for nids. I would also like to see the weapon biomorphs addressed so that devourers are not the only obvious option for fexes and tyrants. As someone else indicated change the range of deathspitters to 24" - give it something so that it is not always ignored. And venom cannons I would like to see go back to shots instead of the blast. That's a really good point on the ranged bio-weapons. There's really only one viable option for Monstrous Creatures. Personally, I'd like to see the TL Deathspitters on Monstrous Creatures become something like: Twin Linked Deathspitter with Burster Maggots: 24", Str 7, AP 5, Assault 2 Blast. I agree on Heavy Venom Cannons. Should be 36" Str 9, Ap 4, Assault 4. (I'd also like to see them called something like "Acidshard Cannon". Heavy Venom Cannon just feels...lazy. I mean, Monstrous Barbed Stranglers aren't called Heavy Barbed Stranglers. They're Stranglethorn Cannons. Gimme some flair! Speaking of.. Stranglethorn Cannon: 36" Str 6, AP 4, Assault 1, Large Blast, Strangle Strangle: Any unit which suffers one or more unsaved wounds from this weapon must take a Strength test. If the test is failed, the unit must immediately Go to Ground. I'd give this to Barbed Stranglers as well. On a side note, I'd love to see Shadow in the Warp become useful and narrative again. Enemy Psykers within synapse range of a model with Shadow in the Warp generate no additional Warp Charge during the Psychic Phase.
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Post by webebuggin on Aug 26, 2014 4:18:23 GMT
I think the current book is workable, but lots of missed opportunities and poor rules writing abound. Here’s what I would change/fix Synapse: While Fearless is nice, Synapse feels more like “avoiding punishment” rather than any kind of bonus. It offers very little benefit in relation to the glaring weakness it gives our army. In addition to Fearless, units should also gain an additional benefit so long as they are within synapse range, based on the Instinctive Behavior of the unit. Echoing the “6” result on each IB table. Kind of the Hive Mind enhancing the basic biology and function of the creatures. Feed: Gains Rage Hunt: Gains Preferred Enemy on Shooting attacks Lurk: Gains Stealth These bonuses also make the terribly punishing Instinctive Behavior tables we currently have a bit easier to swallow as there is definite risk/reward to being in Synapse rather than just a punishment heaped on top of a punishment. Warlord Traits: 1-Natures Bane – Place a Twisted Copse (or similar sized) terrain marker anywhere on the board after both sides have deployed but before the first turn. All enemy units count this as Dangerous Terrain. 2- Nocturnal Predator: May declare Night Fight on Turn 1. No need to roll. Warlord and all friendly Tyranid units in it’s Synapse Range gain Night Vision 3- Synaptic Lynchpin – Fine as is. 4- Mind Eater – Fine as is. 5- Digestive Denial – Selected Terrain feature also becomes Dangerous to enemy units. 6 – Adaptive Biology – Gains FnP (4+) immediately after suffering it’s first unsaved wound. (FnP cannot negate this wound) Unit Changes: Hive Tyrants and Tervigons should also be able to take Biomancy Hive Tyrants without Wings need an option for a 2+ armor save again. Swarmlord should gain a 2+ save and/or a 4+ inv at all times. Tyranid Primes. Down to 80pts but have a 4+ save. Gain the option for Wings,(30pts) becoming Jump Infantry (Character) or Serpentine, (20pts) becoming Beasts (Character) and gaining Deep Strike. Primes without Wings can take a 3+ save for 15pts. Alpha Warrior should also effect Ravener Broods. Pyrovores gain Torrent. Lictors: Enemy models can only fire Snap Shots at Lictors during the turn they deploy from Deep Strike reserve. Gain Prey Adaptation like the Malanthrope. (they, and any friendly Tyranid units within 6” gain Preferred Enemy once they kill a unit) Haruspex: down to 140pts. Rapacious Hunger works every turn, not just the turn it charges. Hive Guard: down to 50pts a model Genestealers down to 10pts a model, gain Stealth. Broodlord is 50pts. Mawlocs, Trygons and Trygon Primes can move 12” in the movement phase. (Serpentine) -Subterranean Assault: For Each Trygon (or Trygon Prime) in your army that will be arriving via Deep Strike Reserve, nominate a single friendly Tyranid unit of Infantry or Beasts in reserve and in the same detachment as the Trygon. Each unit should be associated with a specific Trygon. Mark this on your army roster and inform your opponent. Do not make reserve rolls for the associated units. Instead, when the Trygon arrives via Deep Strike reserve, once it's final position is determined, it's associated unit automatically arrives from reserve and is placed wholly within 6" of the Trygon's base. The unit may not move or assault this turn but may shoot or run. I like ALL Of This and a couple more: scything talons grant re-rolls to rolls of 1, 2 pairs gain full re-rolls for missed hit. Haruspex: Gains beast (I would have 3 of this model in a heart beat) Tyrants: Independent characters Old one eye: Gains synapse Biovores: Flak spores are now a thing so sky fire Raveneors: can take same items warriors can DIMACHAERON: becomes jump monstrous creature
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