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Post by Silegy on Jul 28, 2014 17:10:17 GMT
I am also curious about what kinds of lists the tyranid players brought to the tournament. How many used FW nid critters, which ones and did these have a large effect on the result of their games? How many used dataslates, which ones? Did any nid players just go with the codex, what builds did they use and how did they do? It is nice to see some of the strong nid players put up a good fight (Go Hive Mind!), but as Info said we should still be honest about our strengths and weaknesses and be careful of the conclusions we draw from events like this - either way. Read the topic? The lists are on 2nd or 3rd page. Anyways, this just tells us what we already know: our codex is still trash, but we still have solid lists that do solid work in good hands. So yea, who would have thought after those amazing statistics from first week of 7th - Nids are not the new big cheese of 7th.
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Post by bigpig on Jul 28, 2014 17:16:50 GMT
One point is that the Top Nid position was hotly contested up until the final game with all of us in running for it. Many of the armies have a healthy percentage of scrubs running them as well. What I've found is that the people running nids are usually all very good players who have run their bugs for years and not "codex hoppers" following the latest power build. You'd think that that level of expertise could get better than a .500+.
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Post by Davor on Jul 28, 2014 17:22:28 GMT
How by loosing one game, can you go from 8th to 17th place? (yes I know I got it wrong, but you get the idea.)
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Post by Silegy on Jul 28, 2014 17:27:29 GMT
One point is that the Top Nid position was hotly contested up until the final game with all of us in running for it. Many of the armies have a healthy percentage of scrubs running them as well. What I've found is that the people running nids are usually all very good players who have run their bugs for years and not "codex hoppers" following the latest power build. You'd think that that level of expertise could get better than a .500+. Well, I agree that the Tyranid community has some quality, there are not as many noobs (like me) around, because new player usually wants a good, solid army. Or even the most powerful one. And so a new player looks some stuff on the internet or ask someone and what he gets is: "Yea, Nids have cool models, really poorly written codex, not really any fun combos (unlike Necrons for example), but still pretty good results." And new player is like "Hey, I dont want a poorly written codex." "I want some fun combos." "I want top results." Only few of them will say "Oh hey, yea, totally cool models, let's get these." Man, when I chose Tyranids as my army... If I had known how our codex will look like in 7th edition, I would probably go with Necrons. Basically everything that made me pick Nids is currently nonsense, now Im in only because of a) coolest models b) money investment.
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Post by biomassbob on Jul 28, 2014 17:31:32 GMT
I am also curious about what kinds of lists the tyranid players brought to the tournament. How many used FW nid critters, which ones and did these have a large effect on the result of their games? How many used dataslates, which ones? Did any nid players just go with the codex, what builds did they use and how did they do? It is nice to see some of the strong nid players put up a good fight (Go Hive Mind!), but as Info said we should still be honest about our strengths and weaknesses and be careful of the conclusions we draw from events like this - either way. Read the topic? The lists are on 2nd or 3rd page. Anyways, this just tells us what we already know: our codex is still trash, but we still have solid lists that do solid work in good hands. So yea, who would have thought after those amazing statistics from first week of 7th - Nids are not the new big cheese of 7th. Ah, missed bigpig's description of some of the lists. So living artillery with 2 flyrants used for 3 lists, 2 with rippers. Incontrol used a hierodule and bigpig used a malanthrope. I thought I read somewhere that someone used that new FW nid creature (dim - something)? Anyone know what the other 5 nid players were using?
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Post by Silegy on Jul 28, 2014 17:35:36 GMT
Read the topic? The lists are on 2nd or 3rd page. Anyways, this just tells us what we already know: our codex is still trash, but we still have solid lists that do solid work in good hands. So yea, who would have thought after those amazing statistics from first week of 7th - Nids are not the new big cheese of 7th. Ah, missed bigpig's description of some of the lists. So living artillery with 2 flyrants used for 3 lists, 2 with rippers. Incontrol used a hierodule and bigpig used a malanthrope. I thought I read somewhere that someone used that new FW nid creature (dim - something)? Anyone know what the other 5 nid players were using? I dont want to sound offensive now, but dude, the thread is not that long It is actually in the OP - Devious Donut used Dimachaeblabla.
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Post by krimson on Jul 28, 2014 17:46:03 GMT
Don't forget, for every almost win that went bad, there generally speaking is an almost lose that went good. Close only counts in hand shoes and horse grenades. Also having your best contenders coming in at .500 is not how a bell curve is supposed to work. That said, a well tuned nid list can bring a lot to the table but our codex puts us behind the 8 ball from the beginning and a large percentage of our codex is not competitive at ANY level. Just because the best of the best can eke out a slightly better than .500 WL ratio doesn't mean our codex is balanced or good. It does mean that it isn't an auto-lose but it certainly isn't something you can point at and say "see, see how good our codex is?" I don't get this attitude that everything has to be sunshine and lollipops, we got a bum deal, but we have a few tools we can use to mitigate that. Don't sell yourself short by saying our codex is great, or even balanced. If you are doing good that just means you are that much better than your competition. I tend to be more positive than negative simply because the negativity won't win me any more games. I truly believe that outside of the lack of transportation and lack of non-melee anti vehicle units our codex is really damn good. However without those options it leaves a very big and very common weakness in our dex. I'm hoping we can get something in the near future to help mitigate the AV situation considering how many people are loading their lists with them now. (giving us the option to infiltrate/outflank and charge in the same turn, or even allowing the trygon tunnel to send out units on the turn it arrives would be such a massive boost to our dex. (after removing spores trygon SHOULD allow infantry to follow the turn it enters play, especially for its price tag) this may even get pyrovores some table time.) it wouldn't fix the AV situation, but it would fix our deployment mobility issues. However, if going against anything but heavy vehicles i find us to do very very well. I suppose it depends on your local meta
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Post by bigpig on Jul 28, 2014 17:58:53 GMT
Read the topic? The lists are on 2nd or 3rd page. Anyways, this just tells us what we already know: our codex is still trash, but we still have solid lists that do solid work in good hands. So yea, who would have thought after those amazing statistics from first week of 7th - Nids are not the new big cheese of 7th. Ah, missed bigpig's description of some of the lists. So living artillery with 2 flyrants used for 3 lists, 2 with rippers. Incontrol used a hierodule and bigpig used a malanthrope. I thought I read somewhere that someone used that new FW nid creature (dim - something)? Anyone know what the other 5 nid players were using? Actually, Donut wasn't allowed to use the Dima as he did not have the FW rules with him and since it was so new with quirky rules he needed rules to hand out to opponents. I had a digital version of the FW malantrhope and handouts so I was allowed to run my Malanthrope. Not sure if it was totally fair to him or not.
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Post by coredump on Jul 28, 2014 18:04:19 GMT
One point is that the Top Nid position was hotly contested up until the final game with all of us in running for it. Many of the armies have a healthy percentage of scrubs running them as well. What I've found is that the people running nids are usually all very good players who have run their bugs for years and not "codex hoppers" following the latest power build. You'd think that that level of expertise could get better than a .500+. the flip side to this, is the luck factor favors the popular codex. There is a certain amount of luck, either in dice rolls, or objectives, or in who/what armies you draw. Even the mistakes you make, *when* you make them can be a bit luck-based. The more people playing a codex, the more chances that codex has of catching a string of lucky breaks. Think of it this way. Lets assume that Eldar is the best codex. Now we have a 16 person tourney, but only 1 person plays eldar. It is doubtful Eldar will win. Eldar can't afford to have *any* bad games, or they are out. Now, same tourney, but 8 people play Eldar. Now it is very likely that Eldar will win. Nothing has changed about the quality of the codex, there is just more chances for good luck, and any one bad game only affects 1/8 of the eldar players. Finally, there is some merit to a player that sticks with a codex and can get the best out of it.... That does provide a certain advantage. (At least I hope so, its what I try and do) But we also can't ignore that not only do a lot of 'followers' jump to the codex flavor of the month, but a lot of Top players do also. (And there are plenty of bad players that stick with their army because they like them.) In short, you need to be careful when using tourney results to compare codex quality and power. If codex A is 10% better than codex B; a lot of top players will jump from B to A, and a lot of 'bandwagon followers' will jump from B to A. This will allow Codex A to perform 25% better in tourney rankings... giving a skewed looking result.
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Post by Davor on Jul 28, 2014 18:04:22 GMT
@ Bigpig. Where did you get the digital version of FW? I want to buy FW digitally but I can't see where. Or did you have the codex and scanned them yourself?
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Post by coredump on Jul 28, 2014 18:12:10 GMT
Ah, missed bigpig's description of some of the lists. So living artillery with 2 flyrants used for 3 lists, 2 with rippers. Incontrol used a hierodule and bigpig used a malanthrope. I thought I read somewhere that someone used that new FW nid creature (dim - something)? Anyone know what the other 5 nid players were using? Actually, Donut wasn't allowed to use the Dima as he did not have the FW rules with him and since it was so new with quirky rules he needed rules to hand out to opponents. I had a digital version of the FW malantrhope and handouts so I was allowed to run my Malanthrope. Not sure if it was totally fair to him or not. Not really. From what he said, he contacted Reece and was told he can't use it with only a handout, he would need the actual book. OTOH, I strongly suggested to him to bring the handouts anyway, and talk to Reece/judges again at the actual tournament. But, stuff happens.
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Post by bigpig on Jul 28, 2014 18:20:37 GMT
@ Bigpig. Where did you get the digital version of FW? I want to buy FW digitally but I can't see where. Or did you have the codex and scanned them yourself? shhhhh...... Its a scan of the rules for Malanthrope, but it was enough to squeek me by, especially since it is basically a Venomthrope on steroids. My physical book isn't here until tomorrow. How by loosing one game, can you go from 8th to 17th place? (yes I know I got it wrong, but you get the idea.) The swings were pretty big with their scoring system. In the final game I was on table 17, Geoff was on 18, Donut and JY2 were on somewhere around 8 and 10. Donut, JY, and I lost. Geoff won. He pops all the way to top nid above Donut and JY2 and his final position overall.
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Post by coredump on Jul 28, 2014 18:24:21 GMT
How by loosing one game, can you go from 8th to 17th place? (yes I know I got it wrong, but you get the idea.) And this is the second part of this. There are *only* 6 games, and only 1 person gets 6 wins. So you need to fit a *lot* of people into a fairly small number of groupings. (5-1, 4-2, etc.) For instance, there is a 6-way tie for 3rd place. When people are so clumped together, it is easy to jump way high or way low very quickly. Which is another way the results can look skewed. Had JY2's game ended on turn 5 or turn 6, that is all it would take for a win, and he goes from 35 to top 10. And we go from "nids suck" to "we did great". (OTOH, InControl got *way* lucky day 1, and maybe he should be around 30 instead of 17...) But either way my point holds... there is a *lot* of volatility in tourney rankings; so don't read *too* much into them.
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Post by bigpig on Jul 28, 2014 18:42:48 GMT
How by loosing one game, can you go from 8th to 17th place? (yes I know I got it wrong, but you get the idea.) And this is the second part of this. There are *only* 6 games, and only 1 person gets 6 wins. So you need to fit a *lot* of people into a fairly small number of groupings. (5-1, 4-2, etc.) For instance, there is a 6-way tie for 3rd place. When people are so clumped together, it is easy to jump way high or way low very quickly. Which is another way the results can look skewed. Had JY2's game ended on turn 5 or turn 6, that is all it would take for a win, and he goes from 35 to top 10. And we go from "nids suck" to "we did great". (OTOH, InControl got *way* lucky day 1, and maybe he should be around 30 instead of 17...) But either way my point holds... there is a *lot* of volatility in tourney rankings; so don't read *too* much into them. Yep, ranking is based on WLD record with total battle points as the tie breaker within those tiers of records. Beyond the person who wins all six games, for whom it doesn't matter, this really favors armies that can score big by winning primary/secondary/bonus points.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 29, 2014 3:07:48 GMT
Did they post the top 20 lists? I want to see exactly what each was packing, especially the chaos marine players. I'm guessing some variant of heldrakes + noise marines if there were that many marines in the top 20. I have been shocked before though.
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