swooping cheese or impossible / worthless?

[Jabberwocky]

So I've been planning my living fortress for apoc with 2 flyrants to jink-tank.

I thought I better look up the rules on swooping incase I use that too. Then it hit me.

The rules obviously weren't written ever expecting an FMC to be in a unit and there is a massive loophole because of this.

By having a unit of 3+ guard either in apoc or 40k it's entirely possible to move a Flyrant over 12" every turn, zig zagging to keep coherency, especially if the guards run to keep up.

The problem is, are they hard to hit?

The unit in theory can only be snap shot at especially with the Flyrant in front, but what about assault? The unit can't declare an assault because it swooped, but can it be assaulted due to the walking guards?

Obviously losing the ability to assault is harsh but this kind of durability is hard to pass up, especially in apoc where High Command formations are prime targets for Details blasts.

[glassiya]

The problem is, are they hard to hit?

The unit in theory can only be snap shot at especially with the Flyrant in front, but what about assault? The unit can't declare an assault because it swooped, but can it be assaulted due to the walking guards?

Doubt it.

Even if we won't count an obvious ban of Swoopers joining units (ETC has this one, as I recall), it still is a unit of Infantry Tyrant Guard, joined by HT. And he doesn't share his rules on a unit, or vice-versa.

[Jabberwocky]

If the Flyrant is at the front though, it's hard to justify allocating normal shots onto a target you can only snapshot on.

Just like a tyranid Prime attached to Deathleaper, which is perfectly legal.

Power wise it's really no worse than casting Invisibility on your Titan or any deathstars, I'm just concerned if it's basically exploiting a loop hole or oversight and thus not a fair use of the rules.

[glassiya]

Jul 23, 2014 9:54:09 GMT Jabberwocky said:

If the Flyrant is at the front though, it's hard to justify allocating normal shots onto a target you can only snapshot on.

You're still shooting AT THE UNIT of Guards with joined Tyrant. Not in a single one or another model from it.
There is similar problem with using grenades against Tyrant while he is a part of Guards.

Leaper-Prime example is still logicaly possible.

[Yautja]

The entire unit has to move as one. You can't say some of them are moving in a straight line and another is going all over the place.

[tydrace]

Jul 23, 2014 13:30:54 GMT Yautja said:

The entire unit has to move as one. You can't say some of them are moving in a straight line and another is going all over the place.

Models in a unit can move individually as long as they end in coherency. You can decide to move everyone but one model, you can have the right guy move to the left while the left guy moves right. Doesn't really matter.

[coredump]

This has come up before, and the logistics is a pain in the butt. It is somewhat possible, but *really* limits where and what the tyrants can do in a turn, and since they can never leave.... Also, if anything screws with the TGaurds movement. (like a bad diff terrain test), and thus keeps the flyrants from moving a full 12", the flyrants all die...

The rules questions it brings up are real, and I don't have a good an easy answer. The real solution is that the formation doesn't work well with flyrants.

You could just Glide the flyrant, and still benefit from the 4+ jink save.

[krimson]

I have tried this, Even made a thread on it earlier. it worked fine until turn 3, the 90* pivots meant i had to change modes or be out of coherency, plus my venomthrope could not keep up...

that turn is when my enemy charged me, and bogged me down pretty hard (damn spacewolves move fast and die slow)

[Jabberwocky]

In apoc it's easier because having 6 guards in the unit makes zig zagging easier. If for a turn the guards fall behind, the second Flyrant simply goes 10" to plug the coherency gap while leaving the swooper out front and they leap frog each turn while the guards catch up.

In 40k, it's mathematically possible though I agree terrain tests and the like would be a pain.

I think in practice I'll stick to glide mode so as not to ruffle too many feathers, plus I want to stay near the venoms anyway.

[deviousdonut]

Guys you can't swoop a FMC in a zigzag line. It has to be a straight line so this is a moot point. I doubt you could swoop over 12"and keep guard in coherency past one phase of flyrant swooping from back of squad to front and the squad was daisy chained in deployment

[coredump]

Jul 23, 2014 17:40:07 GMT deviousdonut said:

Guys you can't swoop a FMC in a zigzag line. It has to be a straight line so this is a moot point. I doubt you could swoop over 12"and keep guard in coherency past one phase of flyrant swooping from back of squad to front and the squad was daisy chained in deployment

You are misunderstanding the intent.

The TG are in a line with max separation, which means they provide a 12" wide space to maintain coherency. (Space A, 2", TG, 2", TG, 2", TG, 2", Space B) The idea is you start on the left side behind the TG. Turn 1 the TG move 6" and the flyrant swoops at a 45degree angle, and ends on the far right side. Then the TG Run.
Turn 2 the same thing, except the flyrant pivots 90degrees to the left before swooping.

This way the TG move straight forward, with the flyrant swooping back and forth....

[Jabberwocky]

Exactly as coredump explained. The width of the unit only needs to be 9" if the guard can run an average of 3" a turn for a total 9" forward move. Not too hard with fleet and easier to achieve when you can spread the unit more to start with.

Incredibly easy in apoc with the Living Fortress formation.

[lander]

in the old rulebook was not there that: all models in a unit has to move as much as the slowest model in it, dunno if it is in the new rulebook.

[coredump]

no longer in it. Not in 6E either IIRC

[javaman21011]

Does anyone have a picture of the end result of this? I still don't 'get' why you'd want to have a HT swooping and be attached to a unit of guard.