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Post by emoge on Apr 10, 2014 3:20:54 GMT
Could take an assault vehicle to get them into assault... Bio-titan with swarm incubation chamber biomorph!
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Post by blackrainbow on Apr 15, 2014 6:39:05 GMT
The thing with Genestealers is that their reputation, especially among older gamers, is utterly fearsome. We remember how absurdly destructive they were in previous codices, and they are also one of the most iconic monsters in the lore as well - emblematic of many different types of fear. The thought of them getting into assault range of anything sends shivers up the spine. The fear is often grossly disproportionate to the actual threat they pose; people will go to great lengths to avoid them simply because of their almost-mythical threat potential. God damn it, if even one of those things gets in here then that really will be all... This fear is a weapon in itself. I use my genestealers for area denial, forcing my opponent to change his strategy and sacrifice ground. I use two broods of 5 stealers and infiltrate them inside buildings on one half of the table. The opponent has to clear them out of the buildings if they want to move around in that half with any degree of safety. This requires them to demolish the building by using a heavy weapon on it. If they don't clear them out, then any unit approaching within a foot of a building risks being eviscerated by the most feared monsters in the galaxy. Of course, players are hesitant to waste their heavy weapons on terrain - they need them to stop the actual killing power of my army. A handful of genestealers who don't appear to be much of a threat and aren't making plans to leave their cosy accommodation any time soon seem like less of a priority than the 5 monstrous creatures already tearing up their deployment zone. My list is: Flyrant + Devourers + ESgrubs Mawloc Mawloc Crone Crone 5 Genestealers 5 Genestealers _________ 1000pts In the six games I've played with this list, the stealers have never left their buildings or done any damage, but it is the THREAT of what they COULD do that is their contribution to my strategy. The fear they inspire in the enemy general encourages him/her to bunch the food up in the other half of the board, well away from genestealer territory, making it easier prey for mawlocs, flyrants and hive crones. Anything deployed into the genestealer's half is shut out of the game while 860pts of MCs tear apart a smaller part of the enemy force. Use the fear. I'm saving this. Somewhere, sometime in the future, some part of this will be quoted. Your building tactics are gold and would shut down about 80% of my club. When I (well, if I use them...) pop my GS, they are the target priority. When a new guy shows up, 4 of the 6 other players all come over at one point and said, "shoot the GS, kill them first." Thanks. But yes, the fear players have for GS is crazy.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 15, 2014 6:48:42 GMT
i tried the small units of stealers when the new codex first hit, been meaning to go back to try it again as it does give some tactical flexibility (i.e. no synapse tax). the problem with them like this is they're not a threat to much of anything, and can be ignored.
this is a good thing, because you want them to live to score.
it's a bad thing if you want them to kill much of anything. they're really not likely to.
this isn't 'using the fear' it's trolling dumbasses. which works to a point as long as people are dumb enough to take the bait. experienced players are just going to roll into your ruins and double tap the stealers and assault anything that lived. or roll into your ruins, double tap them, and then just wait, because what are you going to do, charge with two stealers? then double tap them again.
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Post by ariel on Apr 17, 2014 14:25:10 GMT
genestealers are whatever. . . sadly. . . . they dont get to assault and if they do. . . .meh. . .i miss ymgarls...
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Post by Hunger on Apr 17, 2014 23:58:20 GMT
i tried the small units of stealers when the new codex first hit, been meaning to go back to try it again as it does give some tactical flexibility (i.e. no synapse tax). the problem with them like this is they're not a threat to much of anything, and can be ignored. this is a good thing, because you want them to live to score. it's a bad thing if you want them to kill much of anything. they're really not likely to. this isn't 'using the fear' it's trolling dumbasses. which works to a point as long as people are dumb enough to take the bait. experienced players are just going to roll into your ruins and double tap the stealers and assault anything that lived. or roll into your ruins, double tap them, and then just wait, because what are you going to do, charge with two stealers? then double tap them again. This would be true if I was talking about ruins, but I am talking about intact buildings. 'Ignoring' them is exactly what I am expecting my opponent to do - not because they're a dumbass but because they have much more important things to shoot at and assault. If they choose to ignore my stealers lurking in their buildings then they hand me a good portion of the board, which does a number of things that improve my odds of success - for example, increasing the likelihood of my mawlocs TFTD hitting, reducing the footprint of terrain they have access to (and by extension, the number of cover saves they can access). A statistical leverage in my favour that helps the rest of my list do its job better. If the stealers never leave their buildings and never engage anything, that's fine and it means they have done their job. If they get the opportunity to pounce on something they can kill, so much the better. Obviously I try to place objectives near their buildings too. If my opponent wishes to flush them out its not hard for him to do so, but it means my MCs have fewer weapons aimed at them, which means the MCs are going to live longer and kill more things. I urge you to try it and see the cogs turn behind your opponent's eyes when he realises that a 70 point nuisance in a building is shutting one or more of his 200pt squads out of the battle that's happening over the other side of the board. Should he divert a heavy weapon to levelling the building? That seems wasteful - he needs every heavy weapon he has to stop the five MCs rampaging around in his deployment zone. Should he just ignore them? If he ignores them it means those squads will have to make a large detour around the building to stay out of the stealers' threat range, which delays them from engaging the MCs and enables me to gain a greater points leverage. Should he send the squad straight in to tempt the stealers out, or flame them? If a squad approaches their building the stealers will exit the building and play hide and seek with the squad around it - the opponent can't afford to waste time chasing the stealers around the building. Of course, if they get close enough then the stealers will simply assault, which will probably cost him the squad. I can't say it will work for everyone, because that depends on how the rest of your list functions, but its working well for me.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 18, 2014 4:59:54 GMT
most places don't us unoccupied/free range buildings. YMMV, obviously. it's also still kind of a bad idea as buildings not part of your list are AV12 and kind of a death trap to anything inside.
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Post by krimson on Apr 21, 2014 19:43:44 GMT
i tried the small units of stealers when the new codex first hit, been meaning to go back to try it again as it does give some tactical flexibility (i.e. no synapse tax). the problem with them like this is they're not a threat to much of anything, and can be ignored. this is a good thing, because you want them to live to score. it's a bad thing if you want them to kill much of anything. they're really not likely to. this isn't 'using the fear' it's trolling dumbasses. which works to a point as long as people are dumb enough to take the bait. experienced players are just going to roll into your ruins and double tap the stealers and assault anything that lived. or roll into your ruins, double tap them, and then just wait, because what are you going to do, charge with two stealers? then double tap them again. But in this case you just forced two rounds of shooting on a 5 man squad of stealers. that's pretty awesome. two volleys away from your MCs is a big deal. Personally I use 10-15 count stealer squads. just plop em in ruins, go to ground for 3+ cover. If an enemy is silly enough to move within assault range of that ruin, just bring a synapse creature nearby to make them fearless, and assault away. it actualy creates a fairly decent threat bubble. and for 180 points. enemy transports cannot risk moving upfield. and it will take alot of shooting to bring down 10+ units with 3+ cover. If you get catalyst and can give them feel no pain, enemies really will not move at them. Being an assault heavy player, i like having hormagaunts run in, and follow up with stealers. (or gargoyles, they assault well too)
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 21, 2014 23:55:27 GMT
It doesn't take 2 rounds of shooting from an entire army to kill a couple of units of stealers. All you're really doing is letting the enemy take shots at things with bolters and other short/medium range weapons on turn one or two or whatever that they normally wouldn't be shooting because they had no good targets.
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Post by krimson on Apr 22, 2014 4:29:51 GMT
It doesn't take 2 rounds of shooting from an entire army to kill a couple of units of stealers. All you're really doing is letting the enemy take shots at things with bolters and other short/medium range weapons on turn one or two or whatever that they normally wouldn't be shooting because they had no good targets. just for numbers sake let's say you put a unit of 5 stealers on an objective in ruins. If the enemy wants to shoot them they can go-to-ground for a 3+ cover save. Assuming the enemy has space marines with bolters. BS4 means 3's to hit Lets say it's a squad of ten. thats approximately a 66% chance to hit. so for this example we have good luck, let's say 7 hits. then it is a 50% chance to wound. lets say they get lucky again and get 4 wounds. Then the Genestealers get their 3+ cover meaning about 66% chance of a save. Or in this case 2.64 saves. lets say they get unlucky and only make 2 saves. on average when facing ten bolter shots a unit of stealers gone to ground will lose 1-2 units. If the enemy gets in rapid fire range, we will lose 2-4 units. but then the enemy will also be charged with 6 stealers the following turn. overwatch will kill another one or two, but 4 stealers in melee with marines will still win the combat. Granted, 5 stealers is not much of a threat... but ten is very very hard to take off the table so long as the enemy does not have ignore cover
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 22, 2014 5:34:11 GMT
it's not 7 hits out of 10, it's very likely 14 hits out of 20 because they'll dance up to rapid fire range. 7 wounds, IF they don't have a flamer (some will, some won't this is going to depend on how tired of aegis lines and stuff your locals are). 3ish dead out of 5, against one of the more mediocre basic troops choices in the game. this is not a good idea. all i can say is try it against a competent opponent and see.
also, why would you think the enemy isn't going to have ignores cover? it's very, very common.
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Post by krimson on Apr 23, 2014 20:18:28 GMT
it's not 7 hits out of 10, it's very likely 14 hits out of 20 because they'll dance up to rapid fire range. 7 wounds, IF they don't have a flamer (some will, some won't this is going to depend on how tired of aegis lines and stuff your locals are). 3ish dead out of 5, against one of the more mediocre basic troops choices in the game. this is not a good idea. all i can say is try it against a competent opponent and see. also, why would you think the enemy isn't going to have ignores cover? it's very, very common. Ignores cover is quite commonplace, but not every unit has it, and if an enemy needs to burn orders, or special weapons on a few stealers it's still a good thing. If they moved into rapid fire range it also means they are within easy assault range. So once you make them fearless after they go to ground, the next turn they will have stealers in their face. and it only takes a few charging genestealers to do massive CC damage. either that, or they are close enough for the rest of your troops to descend upon. In which case having the stealers shot at is still better for you. Stealers aren't really front line troops to begin with, they're more of a cleanup crew. You lock something in combat, and stealers come to clean up what would be a tarpit
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 23, 2014 20:55:32 GMT
you're vastly overestimating pretty much every aspect of genestealers here.
as stated before, do this for awhile and get back with us on how well it actually works out for you.
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 23, 2014 21:42:47 GMT
gigasnail, hunger has played 6 games using this technique and it works, what more "try thsi for a while" do you want? I personally like the idea. I mainly play at home anyway with scratch built terrain so adding some buildings to the board is simple for me.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 23, 2014 22:13:36 GMT
what hunger's talking about above is putting them in actual buildings ( as in AV12 buildings, not ruins, not fortifcations bought with your list). do you use buildings when setting up your table? most people don't, on a regular basis. i would have zero issue dealing with that in any list i'd run. buildings are a death trap.
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Post by N.I.B. on Apr 24, 2014 6:48:51 GMT
I haven't come across a single player in my years of playing that use the building rules.
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