Tyranid standings for LVO so far

[bigpig]

Feb 10, 2014 19:42:17 GMT gloomfang said:

Feb 10, 2014 19:19:19 GMT bigpig said:

Local meta is a big deal and does dictate how you have to go. Sounds like your's sucks, lol. Try taking 3 Crones against those Achilles landraiders. Have them Glide from area terrain to area terrain within the venomthrope bubble (3+ cover save) and Haywire the (please do not swear) out of the landraiders. Not sure if it will work for sure, but is worth a shot

Keep he reports coming. With "standard" tourny rules that so far aren't allowing dataslates, stealers are just at a disadvantage. Without 6" infiltration its a lot harder. Could change if they start allowing dataslates at the national/regional events. In that case you would have truly been the Tyranid Vanguard by trying them out ahead of time

And I didn’t mean a slight against your army or you when I said I see a lot of the same armies as I saw in 5th, but other than the HS and Elites swapping some units in and out I don’t see much change. As far as I know I am the only person who is crazy enough to try stealer shock in any meta. But there are still so many flying circus lists out there that everyone where I am is still so AA heavy that flyrants just die.

No worries, didn't take it as such. I have heard slights along that vein from non tyranid players, though, which is why I said I've heard it before. Typically the suggestion is taht we just haven't figured it out yet and are closed minded and trapped in our old say... and, here, let me a non tyranid player show you how it should be done . In reality, while the units may be somewhat the same the approach is different.

Sounds like a tough meta. For clarity, my suggestion was gliding so you don't drop out of the sky and staying in a venomthrope and area terrain bubble for the solid cover saves. Just spitballing. To keep Venoms alive vs T-fire you have to have ruin terrain so they can actually hide on the lower level underneath the second or third level. Barrage can't hit them that way. Otherwise, yeah, if out in the open they are screwed, even with a 3+ save they are too squishy and a prime target. Depends a lot on what you have available in terrain.

[chuckles]

Feb 10, 2014 20:05:38 GMT gloomfang said:

At Chuckles:
No my plan revolves around board control and enemy containment. I honestly don't care if I actully kill anything or if most of my units die as long as I can keep him from scoring more VPs then me. A lot of the tactics I see in use are either buff style (buffmander/farseer/ethereal) that require close unit proximity or are deathstars that can not handle a war of attrition with a multipul units like stealers.

When I play I want to dictate (as much as possible) where he moves, what he shoots at and have options for where I am going to bring extra firepower to bear with my other (more killy) units.

I admit I have a real problem with Purge with so many KPs laying around.

Quite a few tournaments that I know of take KPs into account in some way as well as VPs (although not with the same weighting and this is in the UK, may be different where you are). But even there I don't see how you can hope for much containment. Genestealers will either walk through a unit like Firewarriors and then vanish in a puff of return fire or get taken to pieces by more competent combat specialists (or even incompetent combat specialists). If you rolled Catalyst a few times they might work as a tarpit unit to some extent but you can't guarantee that and the list you propose seems very light on psykers who can have it in any case, so that's not going to work. Stealers are very easy to ignore or delete, they are poor distraction units. Compare them with flesh hounds, who are faster, cheaper (points per wound) and harder to kill, and they look like what they are: bugger all use for anything in a competitive meta.

The "you just need to change your playstyle" argument is frequently trotted out by people who don't really know much about the codex, but the reality is that changing your playstyle in most cases is redundant because not that much has changed. All our units function in more or less the same way they did before, except that usually they aren't as good at it now. Yeah, you get more of them, but in comparison to what other people are packing they actually remain in many cases over-costed, and the special rules and equipment the army gets means that they are still rather weak compared to most of what else is rocking around in the game. The lists haven't changed much because there's not much point in changing them other than where we've lost access to stuff like the Doom or Spores (thanks again GW), in which case you just add more of the other stuff you already had.

[Hive Bahamut]

Stealer shock lists.. Here let me just load up another rock. They were gimmicky in 5th because of outflank, useless with the intro of 6th and now probably the worst/most overcosted assault unit in alll of 40k. Daemonettes are 9 points and would grape probably 2x their number. Ork boy? 6 points and guarantee even 2 of these shoot and chop em up. WS6 makes 0 difference against ANYTHING not WS 5, and I6 means jack when you trip on a brick assaulting a random distance into overwatch.

All for the cost of a single marine each! Watch that 5 point flamer barbecue your squads and bolter/infantry guns shred through with impunity. Also rending is about as reliable as a monkey with a stick of lit dynamite. Still going to be messy regardless.

Also yes Deathleaper is now the Gene HQ so fluffy vanguard lists are possible. I have 45 Genestealers and have tried to make them work, but as they are they just remove the kneecaps from you for your opponent. Garbage. The horror is still so bad..

[gloomfang]

At Chuckles: If KP were always a part of my meta I would scrap my stealer list. As it is now we have mostly objective missions. Not going to lie, having a hard time with Nids this edition.

At Bahamet: How are you running your stealers and are you also running lictors? I originally tried 3 big broods with BL and had them shot off the board. With my vanguard list I have 8 broods of stealers, 5 broods of lictors and deathleaper. Something always makes it in and if I lose 5 or 6 units I am out 350pts or less and still have another 8-9 broods that make it in.

At BigPig: If I remember right thundrfires ignore cover and that is what made the venoms so squishy.

[coredump]

But barrage only hits the level you see through the center hole. So if the venom is under a floor, the barrage can't hit it.

[gloomfang]

Feb 10, 2014 20:49:56 GMT coredump said:

But barrage only hits the level you see through the center hole. So if the venom is under a floor, the barrage can't hit it.

Right, but ruins don't matter if you hit the few models outside the ruins that are giving the coversave to the rest of the unit. See my discussion about "daisy cutting". Also if you target a unit near the wall and the center of the blast is still on the outside of the ruin it will still hit the venomtropes. (IF I am wrong PLEASE correct me on this!!)

Lots and lots of ignore cover in my area.

[mattblowers]

My issue with stealers is along the lines of Bahamut: you simply can't put enough broods on the table to overcome how bad they are. Let's say you do take 6 squads: that's all the scoring you have. Marines, any flavor (biggest portion of what I see played in my area) cost roughly the same. That will never end well. You get the same number of bodies on the table with much worse save and no shooting attack. I don't see it. I'd rather put 3x the gaunts on the table for the same price.

[gloomfang]

Feb 10, 2014 21:09:09 GMT mattblowers said:

My issue with stealers is along the lines of Bahamut: you simply can't put enough broods on the table to overcome how bad they are. Let's say you do take 6 squads: that's all the scoring you have. Marines, any flavor (biggest portion of what I see played in my area) cost roughly the same. That will never end well. You get the same number of bodies on the table with much worse save and no shooting attack. I don't see it. I'd rather put 3x the gaunts on the table for the same price.

Ok this is going to be my last post on the stealer shock part of "competitive builds" as we are going way off in the weeds.

1) If your not going to be allowed to use Vanguard then you only are going to want a few small stealer broods to infiltrate on objectives as they can hold them out of synapse. That way if your synaspe goes down you don't have IB worries. Warriors are fine for backfield objectives in most cases, but sometimes you have more than 2-3 objectives.

2)If you want to assault marines you are going to need to have a lead in unit like hormigaunts or gargyles to take the fire and then go in with the stealers.

3) Use your brain when infiltrating. Don't assume that closer is better. Use cover and terrain to place units in an area you think they are going to want to be. picking someplace out of thier range may also make them move closer to the rest of your army to shoot the stealers. It will either slow thier advance as they will want to clear out the threat or keep them boxed in an unable to do much.

4) You are paying a lot of points to place units after your opponent has committed his forces. Find a weakspot like a flank and concentrate your forces there. Knowing you have infiltrators will greatly affect most people's deployment.

[coredump]

But the topic was FMCs, so daisy chaining isn't an issue.

If there is a model out of the terrain, and they are within 1.5" of a model on the inside of the ruin, I suppose you could target one and hit them both. But don't put them that close together.
Of course, he may be able to 'walk' them into you... but that takes a decent amount of luck, and well, nothing is perfect. Or you could put the venom on the second floor, under the third floor roof.

NOthing is going to keep you 'safe' just make it harder to take you out while you work on taking him out. 3 crones should be able to take out a land Raider a turn for the first two turns.

[gloomfang]

Feb 10, 2014 22:14:34 GMT coredump said:

But the topic was FMCs, so daisy chaining isn't an issue.

Good point. I was thinking things like gaunts.

Feb 10, 2014 22:14:34 GMT coredump said:

If there is a model out of the terrain, and they are within 1.5" of a model on the inside of the ruin, I suppose you could target one and hit them both. But don't put them that close together.
Of course, he may be able to 'walk' them into you... but that takes a decent amount of luck, and well, nothing is perfect. Or you could put the venom on the second floor, under the third floor roof.

Second floor might be a good option. Much safer there from scatter.

Feb 10, 2014 22:14:34 GMT coredump said:

NOthing is going to keep you 'safe' just make it harder to take you out while you work on taking him out. 3 crones should be able to take out a land Raider a turn for the first two turns.

Look at the sides of the Achilles. Those are twinlinked multi-meltas. Not a good thing for crones. Might be worth a try. (And yes the Achilles comes with extra armor and PotMS standard. It also drops all pen table results by 1.)
There are also the razorbacks and the ACs on the dreads. Like I said FMCs don't last long in my meta.

[coredump]

What book has the Achilles? I need to check its rules.

And the contemptible dred.

[coredump]

Load up on zoans.... Give him more (please do not swear) to deal with.

[gigasnail]

Gloom if your regular bros are in full forgeworld boner mode, i have very little advice that i can share. That (please do not swear) looks rough.

[gloomfang]

Feb 11, 2014 0:37:43 GMT gigasnail said:

Gloom if your regular bros are in full forgeworld boner mode, i have very little advice that i can share. That (please do not swear) looks rough.

Don't feel to bad. I have 2 draws and no loses against that list with the old codex.

You should see the hard to beat lists.

[gigasnail]

the contemptors are annoying but saber platforms and thudd gun batteries have to suck.