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Post by coredump on Feb 6, 2014 0:02:10 GMT
Chuckles I never said my army is slow every time I play every enemy I played against I was on their side of the table getting in CC turn 2 and I go first most of the time. If that is slow then you must think that you must be in his zone turn 1 (really I past 12' every game turn 1). This does not mean I use nothing but fast moving things I have a lot of slow moving things but the way I deploy matters. even the Tua gun line got stuck in CC turn 2 and he gave up turn 5 the walking tyrant with 10W just rolled through his lines with the Gaunts. I'm srry you cant see how fast the army is right now and thinking the army is slow have fun not enjoying your self I have to get ready for a torumy coming up (note that most of players at my store are major players to and go to the big tourmies all the time). So, how do you have a 'fast list' when you are waiting on HT and Warriors for synapse? How do you control objectives in various parts of the board?
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Post by gloomfang on Feb 6, 2014 0:15:13 GMT
I will say once your in CC IB stops being an issue.
Then the issue is that you don't have Fearless and you have a Ld of 6-8 and if you don't cause more wounds then your opponent your going to break. Getting the wounds isn't hard because of toxin on everything. The problem is our S and AP usually suck on things that are not synapse or already Fearless naturally.
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Post by daboarder on Feb 6, 2014 0:52:43 GMT
I will say once your in CC IB stops being an issue. Then the issue is that you don't have Fearless and you have a Ld of 6-8 and if you don't cause more wounds then your opponent your going to break. Getting the wounds isn't hard because of toxin on everything. The problem is our S and AP usually suck on things that are not synapse or already Fearless naturally. no don't waste points on toxin, these days you should aim to kill through attrition
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Post by gloomfang on Feb 6, 2014 1:31:12 GMT
I will say once your in CC IB stops being an issue. Then the issue is that you don't have Fearless and you have a Ld of 6-8 and if you don't cause more wounds then your opponent your going to break. Getting the wounds isn't hard because of toxin on everything. The problem is our S and AP usually suck on things that are not synapse or already Fearless naturally. no don't waste points on toxin, these days you should aim to kill through attrition Only thing I put toxi on is rippers and bonesword shrikes. My list is non-horde, non-MC.
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Post by elitemaster on Feb 6, 2014 5:17:10 GMT
coredump Who said im wahing on them they both have fleet thx to AG and keep up with them. and how do I hold the objectives easy I put most of them in my opponent's side and rush through the center and one in my side for my termagants to hold. They all was seem happy about that till they see all of there objectives are contested with me still holding mine. When I attack I have a supporting fire hit his troops so then he can't hold the objectives and I still can. I play with 5 units of troops and every game I'm in I still have most of it cuz they don't want to waste their shooting into a unit of 3 gaunt left. Most of the time after my turn 1 and my opponent sees how mush ground I covered on that turn I tell my opponent you have your turn to stop me and if you don't I lock your stuff in CC well the Tyrant with 10 wounds goes to the toughest enemy and kills them all really fast. (I bet you haven't see a tyrant with 7 attacks and a bodyguard with 4 attacks each hit a unit of termies its not pretty. oh and the tyrant is S7 and the guard is S6)
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Post by losian on Feb 6, 2014 5:25:03 GMT
Hi guys Long-time lurker, first time poster. I'm just getting back into 40k after a long absence (about 10 years), so forgive me if this is a stupid question but why is everyone complaining about having to include synapse in the army? First off, synapse isn't new. I played with tyranids back in 3rd edition and we still had to include synapse. Yes i accept that some of the IB stuff is really bad (units eating themselves or running away), but is it really that hard to avoid these? I haven't played in a while but it seems to me that putting together an effective synapse web isn't that difficult or something that puts us at a disadvantage. To start with, look at the number and type of units that have the synapse rule. There is at least one choice per FOC slot. Furthermore, most of those units are ones which are good generally and would earn themselves a slot in any tyranid army even if synapse/IB did not exist. We have tyrants, primes and tervigon in this category. Given that we have to include a tyrant or a prime to act as warlord (discounting old one eye as a bad choice) this gives us guaranteed synapse creature as a minimum. Opinion may be divided over HQ choices but from what i have seen, majority opinion seems to be that winged tyrants are one of, if not the best units in our book. Most lists i have seen include at least one, often two, of these. Why would you not want to include these? The tervigon, even though there are complaints about how badly it has been hit by changes to the new edition, is still a popular,if not automatic, selection. It fits into either HQ or troops with 30 gants. It is a monstrous creature with some strong options. It is a psyker. Best of all it poops out extra troops throughout the game. Again, like the tyrant/prime it is a strong choice and something which crops up in most lists i have seen. Warriors seem to get a bad rep on the forums. Again, i may be out of touch with the reality of the game these days but i quite like warriors. The key for me is their flexibility. They are easily the most multi-functional of our troop choices. Yes they are vulnerable to ID but they are only troops. Every big gun firing at a warrior is one less firing at a MC. With synapse as well i see them as useful mid-field/support units. Shrikes have been the subject of some debate recently elsewhere on this forum. The general conclusion seemed to be that they can be really good assault troops. They are in competition with crones though, and from what i can see crones have generally won out so far in the fight for FOC slots. The final synapse creature is the trygon prime. This is in competition with some of the best units in our list. However, trygon tunnel rules aside, it is not a bad option. A deepstriking MC that doesn't mishap due to terrain or scattering onto units? It can provide an immediate threat to enemy gunlines, distracting from the oncoming horde and it provides synapse for the advance guard elements of the army which have outpaced the back and mid-field synapse support. With all these choices, surely it isn't that difficult to build an army with plenty of synapse support and can still fight effectively? Yes, it limits your choices of unit but many of those choices ate probably ones you would want to take anyway. In my opinion.. The problem is that it went from "You should be wary of this. Keep it in mind. It is a benefit as much as a bonus, you want it, but can live without it in a pinch," to now, with the latest edition, to just fearless, but with ever-steeper penalties for being outside. You lost the immediate regrouping and such, and models flee to the table edge rather than towards synapse. It keeps getting worse, basically, while still imposing the same restrictions on composition and tactics.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 6, 2014 6:09:48 GMT
coredump Who said im wahing on them they both have fleet thx to AG and keep up with them. and how do I hold the objectives easy I put most of them in my opponent's side and rush through the center and one in my side for my termagants to hold. They all was seem happy about that till they see all of there objectives are contested with me still holding mine. When I attack I have a supporting fire hit his troops so then he can't hold the objectives and I still can. I play with 5 units of troops and every game I'm in I still have most of it cuz they don't want to waste their shooting into a unit of 3 gaunt left. Most of the time after my turn 1 and my opponent sees how mush ground I covered on that turn I tell my opponent you have your turn to stop me and if you don't I lock your stuff in CC well the Tyrant with 10 wounds goes to the toughest enemy and kills them all really fast. (I bet you haven't see a tyrant with 7 attacks and a bodyguard with 4 attacks each hit a unit of termies its not pretty. oh and the tyrant is S7 and the guard is S6) then your opponents may not realize it's smarter to avoid your slow walking deathstar, and just shoot it, tarpit it, and generally otherwise avoid it? because that's how you deal with units like a walking tyrant, not by waltzing tactical terminator squads into them. of course that's a bad matchup, and your opponent is dumb for letting you pull it off.
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Post by noctem on Feb 6, 2014 6:35:34 GMT
Gloomfang, what's your list looking like? Are you using Shrikes in it? What sort of combination of weapons?
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Post by elitemaster on Feb 6, 2014 6:54:45 GMT
coredump Who said im wahing on them they both have fleet thx to AG and keep up with them. and how do I hold the objectives easy I put most of them in my opponent's side and rush through the center and one in my side for my termagants to hold. They all was seem happy about that till they see all of there objectives are contested with me still holding mine. When I attack I have a supporting fire hit his troops so then he can't hold the objectives and I still can. I play with 5 units of troops and every game I'm in I still have most of it cuz they don't want to waste their shooting into a unit of 3 gaunt left. Most of the time after my turn 1 and my opponent sees how mush ground I covered on that turn I tell my opponent you have your turn to stop me and if you don't I lock your stuff in CC well the Tyrant with 10 wounds goes to the toughest enemy and kills them all really fast. (I bet you haven't see a tyrant with 7 attacks and a bodyguard with 4 attacks each hit a unit of termies its not pretty. oh and the tyrant is S7 and the guard is S6) then your opponents may not realize it's smarter to avoid your slow walking deathstar, and just shoot it, tarpit it, and generally otherwise avoid it? because that's how you deal with units like a walking tyrant, not by waltzing tactical terminator squads into them. of course that's a bad matchup, and your opponent is dumb for letting you pull it off. They are smart not to get near that Tyrant but its hard to do that when you they are stuck fighting gaunts then the tyrant gets to them and kills them all. And the tyrant is not slow he has fleet and makes most of his charges and can keep up with the Hormagaunts to y do you guys keep saying his slow stop looking at paper and try using it on the table. Paper only tells so mush.
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Post by shrike on Feb 6, 2014 7:13:45 GMT
How are people handling with the synapse though? How many is enough at the point level you play in?
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 6, 2014 7:25:11 GMT
then your opponents may not realize it's smarter to avoid your slow walking deathstar, and just shoot it, tarpit it, and generally otherwise avoid it? because that's how you deal with units like a walking tyrant, not by waltzing tactical terminator squads into them. of course that's a bad matchup, and your opponent is dumb for letting you pull it off. They are smart not to get near that Tyrant but its hard to do that when you they are stuck fighting gaunts then the tyrant gets to them and kills them all. And the tyrant is not slow he has fleet and makes most of his charges and can keep up with the Hormagaunts to y do you guys keep saying his slow stop looking at paper and try using it on the table. Paper only tells so mush. If he's walking, yes he's slow, shootable, kite-able and tarpitable, fleet or not. Paper didnt tell me this, common sense and experience did.
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Post by creatureboi on Feb 6, 2014 7:59:41 GMT
Yes, it should be designed around synapse, and always has been. But when you make the synapse creatures a weak choice, and make IB game breaking.... then it becomes a problem. Yes, they are game breaking. Those HGaunts charging across... now stop and eat themselves. Those gaunts camping an objective, now run off and you lose the objective. That brood of devilfexes... stop doing anything for a turn. They are game breaking... Yes we *can* get an overlapping synapse web... but at an exorbitant cost for very little benefit. We are 'blackmailed' into taking sub par units to avoid the IB 'lose' effect. We have a pretty weak codex already, and the strongest lists you can build... will have very little synapse. So you can't build those... I can build a list with a lot of synapse, I just can't build a good list with a lot of synapse. But since you know that this is going to happen you can plan for it. As i see it there are two ways to respond to your synapse being wiped out: 1) Make a list with so much synapse support that it cant be wiped out before your real threats hit home and take out the stuff killing your synapse (i accept this is difficult to achieve and still be competitive) 2) target saturation- if you have a flyrant and two crones zooming round his army taking stuff out, an exocrant sitting back field blasting away and a wave of gaunts bearing down on his gunline, which threat does he ignore in order to take out your synapse? This *is* the 'heavy burden' your OP asks about. 1) Yes, we can take a ton of synapse support, but that is a 'heavy burden' because those are not the models you want to take to win games. Those are the units you *have* to take because of IB. 2) Thats just it, IB is so debilitating that it makes target priority *easy*. Shooting at the synapse unit is like shooting at *every* unit; because if you take out synapse, you take out everything. In your example its simple... you take out the flyrant... then everything else falls apart. The reasoning behind my OP was that, yes we do need a lot of synapse creatures and that does cost points. But those synapse creatures aren't all that bad and some are things you would take in a list anyway. Imagine there's no such thing as synapse. Would you still take flyrants? They are widely seen as one of our best units. While arguably not as good, the prime is still a valid HQ choice, if only because his IC rules make him a more durable warlord. Zoanthropes are a very strong unit. They are, i think, the only thing in our army which can have inv saves. They come with 3++ as standard and are ML2 psykers with a guaranteed warp blast, giving some ranged anti-tank/MEQ firepower. Warriors are not popular. I accept they are not brilliant, but they aren't terrible either. Not a "must take" unit if synapse is ignored, but something which can be useful to add flexibility. The tervigon is something which most people seem to take. I didn't play in the last edition and i understand that it has been hit pretty hard by the changes in this book, but in my view it is still a good unit. If you pay the gant tax it can hold objectives for you as a troop choice.
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Post by leeroy1986 on Feb 6, 2014 8:38:54 GMT
Well. Last ed synapse was totally irrelevant Termagants just lurked of objectives outside synapse.
Ed before it was how it should be.
Now we have good synapse coverage the best since ive known Nids with Dominion and Norn Crown.(Im sure some may disagree tho). However now it is such a massive disadvantage, its never been as bad as this to my knowledge. So now a synapse web is a must.
Issue is the creatures arent hard to kill either. Look at Eldar with 3x Crimson Hunters, and loads of rending bikers. Tau with Triptides, Sniperkroot and Skyrays.
Maybe if we get Catalyst we're good. Alot of units are okay on IB tests, most arent though, so in the current meta I don't see any way other than the 5 flyer list.
All the good ground units need a IB test with relatively poor ld(ie Biovores n Tyrannofexes).
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Post by malebranche on Feb 6, 2014 8:42:49 GMT
then your opponents may not realize it's smarter to avoid your slow walking deathstar, and just shoot it, tarpit it, and generally otherwise avoid it? because that's how you deal with units like a walking tyrant, not by waltzing tactical terminator squads into them. of course that's a bad matchup, and your opponent is dumb for letting you pull it off. They are smart not to get near that Tyrant but its hard to do that when you they are stuck fighting gaunts then the tyrant gets to them and kills them all. And the tyrant is not slow he has fleet and makes most of his charges and can keep up with the Hormagaunts to y do you guys keep saying his slow stop looking at paper and try using it on the table. Paper only tells so mush. Out of curiosity how big are the tables you usually play on and how old are your opponents?
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Post by elitemaster on Feb 6, 2014 14:57:55 GMT
They are smart not to get near that Tyrant but its hard to do that when you they are stuck fighting gaunts then the tyrant gets to them and kills them all. And the tyrant is not slow he has fleet and makes most of his charges and can keep up with the Hormagaunts to y do you guys keep saying his slow stop looking at paper and try using it on the table. Paper only tells so mush. If he's walking, yes he's slow, shootable, kite-able and tarpitable, fleet or not. Paper didnt tell me this, common sense and experience did. My Tyrants has never been shoot to death or tarpited. He has 10W with a 3+ armor and 3+ cover and a good changes to have FnP as well. He can't be tarpited because its to mean attacks from his unit. Bottom line he goes where he wants, he kills what he wants, and doesn't care what my opponent does. By the way he is in my opponents deployment zone on turn two every game how is that slow
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