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Post by gman25639 on Jun 25, 2013 0:05:30 GMT
Perhaps they were oroginally created by the old ones to stop the necrons and th c'tan from consuming all the souls and growing more powerful, causing them to die out. Maybe like the forerunners, wipe out everything, and then reseed life at the right time. Except the old ones were defeated/ lost control of the nids. With no master to reign them them in, they consume all in their path.
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Post by Kyokii on Jun 25, 2013 3:51:13 GMT
Given how they've devoured a dozen(?) galaxies and made such travel, I'd have to say they're older than the war in heaven. They started moving from wherever they came from long before the (please do not swear) with the Old Ones went down.
I think they evolved from a very hostile environment and developed space travel for the survival of their race. The planet could no longer sustain them, so they reached out for other worlds. Instead of creating architecture with tools like we do, they evolved what they needed. They might have once been a curious race; but that curiosity was probably caused by their insatiable hunger. This curiosity resulted in study of the stars above. An entire race looking up as one from their home and deciding that if they exist on their world: others exist above. And so they pushed their evolution to its limits. They forced their way time and time again to escape- failing over and over, each time evolving- until they broke through. And there they slept until they touched their first world. Because of their hive mind they could have tested drifting into space numerous times before evolving exactly what they needed to survive. The Tyranids were not created by an Old One or some other sentient race-no. They made themselves by necessity. They were born to live, and that is the only thing they sought. Not culture, not religion, not to appease any creator. This race managed to escape their home for three reasons: to feed, grow, and multiply.
They're also more straight-forward in thinking. They sought other worlds to consume instead of evolving ways to consume, say, stars or gas giants or to do anything more efficient. They aim for worlds- conquer and devour, then move on. Why feed like that? Why not do something more efficient? To me, it's that they cannot or will not because the Tyranids don't understand that concept. They can evolve space travel, why not understand that concept? Because they created a way to gather food, and it suits them just fine already. They have been gorging themselves on worlds and haven't stopped to think of a better way because they're too busy satin themselves. Like asking a glutton with tunnel vision to instead take this fork and eat your spaghetti, not just smash your face into it and eat. They don't care, they're eating right now.
sorry, I rambled. But those are my thoughts. Tyranids are their own race, engineered by themselves, not Old ones. They might even be older than Old Ones.
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Post by undead on Jun 26, 2013 10:48:43 GMT
i am totally with Kyokii on this one i reckon they evolved to be who they are , the one thing i would like to expand on is the hive mind. now we all know that the hive mind is the gestalt consciousness that is formed through the interconnection of untold billions of minds, it works in much the same way as swarm client programming does, as an individual there is only instinctual, limited thought but when formed together as a whole the individuals of the swarm link together and the outside stimuli are processed by the whole instead of the one allowing for more advanced and complex thought processes, like having more ram on your computer ( not quite but you see the point of the analogy ). But this is not quite the sentient consciousness of the hive mind that we know, this swarm processing allows for better thought process but that is the extent of it. i believe that the sentience of the hive mind has come from the exposure to countless highly psychic life forms that all left there ageless ethereal footprint on the will of the hive mind and ultimately transformed it into a gestalt sentient will that is of far higher intellect and cunning than all other minds.
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Post by arnil on Aug 18, 2013 9:58:50 GMT
it comes down to the basic forms of life. Bacteria. It can evolve vastly generation to generation. Necrotising fasciitis devours flesh. So tyranids evolved from flesh eating diseases. I also would like to premise the doom that came to their world was themselves. They rose to the dominant species on their planet and ate it. Then like they Will do for eons afterward they picked up and moved on. Also I think the hive mind must have existed In at least genius human level to evolve space travel. Cause animals don't think about space some sentience is required. Animals die out.
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Post by romanarmor on Aug 22, 2013 15:04:52 GMT
I'm going to agree with arnil on this, however, I must ask if anyone here is familiar with Halo fluff, if so, I am going to make a parallel. I view the Old ones as the precursurs, the creators of life, then the eldar are the ancient humans, the necrontyr are the forerunners, and the Tyranids are the flood. Both necrontyr and eldar were created around the same time by the same gods. The necrons failed to worship the old ones and accept their place in the galaxy, the eldar did. As a response, the Old Ones had a way to exterminate failed life. This is where the tyranids came in, they were the exterminators. When they finally reach the Milky Way, almost all of the species have broken the parameters set by the Old Ones. This means that the Tyranids are now programmed to kill all of the races that you can play as today. If the eldar were the same as when the Nids were dispatched, then we would be able to ally with them. But everyone are violent "evil" warriors now, and only peaceloving species are allowed to survive. The tyranids also counter this to keep themsleves from killing each other. They do so by having the hivemind view their conquest as a hunt, instead of a war. In my opening line, I said that I agreed with arnil, I do, i believe that is how they originated, I just choose to believe that they Old Ones had a plan for these flesh-eating bacteria. IMO the Hive mind functions in exactly the same way as the precursor organon. I apologize for the Halo parallel, I just felt that it would help some of the people who now halo fluff understand what I am saying a little more.
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Post by cavius on Aug 22, 2013 17:09:37 GMT
My thought is that they are designed to empty galaxies that have 'failed' so they can be reseeded by the old ones but with the old ones dying they lost control and tyranids have come to sort out the failed galaxy
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Post by tanagra on Aug 22, 2013 18:05:51 GMT
The problem with a "One mind controlling all" backstory is that it had to come from something. Nothing just shows up one day and be this complexly alien. It had to evolve from something, meaning somewhere in the past there were proto-tyranids that held only a vague resemblance to the endless swarm we know and love today and didn't have their inate ability to evolve at will. That's why I have to agree with Ragged Warrior on that possible origin story. It's similar to the zerg's origin, in which they were genetically manipulated by some ancient race of galactic smarty-pants into what we know of them today. And somewhere after their creation, they turned on their creators and began their conquest to consume the galaxy.
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Post by hungryhormie on Aug 27, 2013 1:51:53 GMT
I'm with kyokii on this one. The evolution from a pure animal sentience to something that exceeds our own level of intelligence wouldn't be that hard to believe. Evolution needs to start somewhere. And it doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be manipulated by an out side force. Tyranids evolved themselves to eat and multiply. And by forcing it, over time, they became the undisputed masters of adaptation.
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Post by jinx on Aug 29, 2013 15:54:41 GMT
if Matt Ward gets his hands on the codex the nids may very well turn out to be kroot
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Aug 31, 2013 13:44:28 GMT
The Void Dragon once sneezed on an intergalactic scale and the resulting loogey-dust became the first Norn Queens.
I remember one of the codices, either 4th or 5th Edition, speculating (not hinting!) that Tyranids might even have entered our galaxy as a result of being hunted by something even bigger and far more ruthless. It's obviously just one of those "what if"-speculations that don't really mean anything, but it's a disturbing thought. Aside from that I like how Tyranids at this point in Warhammer canon are some of the last true xenos, with no apparent relation to neither the Old Ones nor the Warp. I would really be bummed out if the Hive Mind turned out to be some C'tan-dude or if the Tyranid psykers suddenly became Warp-dependent.
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Post by gman25639 on Sept 12, 2013 19:26:24 GMT
They could a whole bunch of angry mutant Nyan-cats! they ate their pop tarts and and ran out of rainbows! lol
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Post by chuckles on Sept 19, 2013 18:09:21 GMT
I had a lengthy discussion with a 40K fluff guru (not employed by GW or anything, guy just loved his fluff and had been following it since RT era) about a possible story about the Tyranids' origin. Below are the notes I made on a possible story about it... which I never got around to writing. Perhaps it's time to pick up the keyboard again and do battle with the forces of evil, and writer's block.
Castes • Worker- farms, constructs, low status, takes orders in general (leads to development of gaunt genus). Names all begin with “S” • Breeder- breeds. Male and female analogues acceptable. Asexual reproduction too limited, lacks diversity. Caste of offspring determined hormonally, each individual exudes hormones, if insufficient levels of certain hormone more of that caste produced (no analogue in later Tyranid development). Names all begin with “Sk” • Hunter-gatherer/warrior- starts as HG, develops into Warrior. Warrior ranks based on achievement, making it inherent is too problematic. (turns into Tyranid warrior). Names all begin with “T” • “Thinker”- develops into scientist. Specialities based on personal aptitude (possibility of greater variation). (could turn into Zoat?). Names all begin with “K” • Leader- combines aspects of thinker and warrior. Makes decisions, eventually develops into politician figure. (develops as Hive Tyrant and superior creatures). Names all begin with “Th”
Part 1. M-12 The Kax at this stage are roughly analogous to human society in ancient times (pre great civilisations etc). Basic buildings are constructed (houses, communal buildings), society has developed laws and strictures, living in conclaves (similar to villages but evoking a greater image of community) of about 2,000 Kax each. The tale is told from the point of view of the Leader (Thak) of one of the most powerful and successful tribes, recounting tribal history. Told in first person as Thak describes the achievements of his tribe (the Open Valley tribe, named for the area to which they moved just before they began to thrive). At this stage the Kax are roughly 25/75 water/land bound, and still fish enthusiastically but spend more time on land and are beginning to combine hunting with cultivation and horticulture.
Part 2. M-10. 2,000 years on, the Kax have formed nation states composed of many tribes united together. This is roughly analogous to late Rome. Technology still limited but society has advanced in leaps and bounds, and Leaders and Thinkers now form “political” alliances to make decisions about the development of the nation. The Kax have mastered farming and are now moving away from the hunter-gatherer role towards farming. With this development the Hunter-Gatherer caste has become more or less defunct, and has developed considerably towards the Warrior caste. Note that the Kax are not inclined to conflict within their own species (generally speaking), and Warriors have more of a Guardian role as there are still plenty of risks from their homeworld’s particularly dangerous wildlife. Note that the Kax are now mostly land-based although still perfectly capable of aquatic life and tend to prefer tropical coastlines for their major settlements. Tale told from the perspective of the Leader of their largest settlement (Threx).Tale describes lightly the developments of Kax civilisation. Main emphasis is on a meeting of the various “governors” of the capital of their nation-state (names later) including various tribal Leaders and more Thinkers.
Part 3. M-7, 5,000 years from beginning of tale, now at a similar period to Victorian times, although development has led Kax society down a considerably different route. Most science is more primitive, roughly the level of Tudor/Stuart (17th Century) times, while understanding of genetics has leapt to the level of around 21st Century science. Most wildlife of their homeworld has been tamed with the aid of new developments such as weaponry (broadly similar to fleshborers, devourers etc) as well as behavioural modifications via selective breeding. Kax scientists have started to look inwards to their own genetic structure. However, Kax expansion has led to struggles for resources, and some small and desperate wars have begun over natural supplies. Warriors are now much raised in prestige thanks to their increased value.
Part 4. Story has moved on to M-2. Other branches of science have caught up to the (now superlative) Kax understanding of genetics, especially telescopes and other scanners and sensors. Kax now ahead of 21st century humanity’s development although they have yet to launch a manned space mission, lacking a sufficient vessel. However Kax astronomers discover a race of docile space-faring herbivores. Geneticists are fascinated by this discovery and induce a school of “Space-whales” to approach their homeworld. They domesticate them and after several years are able to turn them into a form of transport through hard vacuum. Note that the Kax have yet to discover any evidence of other sentient races and this has started to affect their thinking.
Part 5. Story moves on to M1.462. Almost 2,000 years previously the Kax encountered another sentient race, the Irossi. Initial military encounters are inconclusive and a tentative peace accord was reached. However, over several centuries since the Kax have been occupied with internal expansion and development. The Irossi predicted their attempts to expand and pursued a policy of containment. By the time Part 5 begins however the Kax have reached the stage where they feel ready to launch an attack.
Part 6. Story is now in M4. 2,000 years have passed since the conquest of the Irossi. The Kax have begun to come into conflict with other sentient races and soon discover that the Irossi were a relatively un-military race. In M4.111 Kax scientists begin to unravel the secrets of Irossi Warp-technology, and start applying it to their own designs. They use their understanding of the nature of the Warp to try and enhance the sense of community within small groups of Kax. However the first experiment proves a disaster. Those Kax with higher sensitivity to the thoughts and moods of others are driven mad by the psychic noise. Kax scientists begin to experiment with retarding the cognitive ability of test-subjects. Eventually they succeed in creating a “discrete intelligence”, a network of individually stupid creatures which can when linked together form a hyper-efficient psychic relay. There is considerable debate over whether to utilise this technology but eventually it is approved.
Part 7. Crisis point. Having reformed their society using psychic networks the Kax have started a vast drive of expansion fuelled by their expanded military. However, the Almans in a desperate bid for survival launch a shock offensive. As the Kax military moves to respond the Alman reserves attack the Kax core-worlds. The Kax are sent into panic as the Almans endanger their homeworlds. As a last minute measure the Kax leadership authorise the science teams to deploy an experimental weapon- psychically linked combat teams. These prove extremely effective but there are only a small number of them. As a last ditch effort, the Kax leadership decide to link the (now fully automated) Kax workforce into combat teams, giving them military directions instead of production ones. They rise up and are duly slaughtered in their millions, but are able to fight off the vastly outnumbered Alman forces. The Almans are spent and sue for peace, but in their rage at how close they came to destruction the Kax attack in force and annihilate and then assimilate the Alman race.
Part 8. Climax. Networked combat teams are made vastly more widespread, and meanwhile the Kax have found other uses for their “discrete intelligences”. The ultimate use is as communal intelligence. True artificial intelligence is as yet beyond the grasp of Kax scientists, but they are able to design new technologies and other forms of innovation, and soon outstrip Kax scientists themselves. The use of these “discrete brains” allows the Kax military to undergo another vast expansion and to reach the T’ro’ta, their last remaining rival, who had managed to retreat far enough away that they were originally beyond the Kax’ reach. They are rapidly defeated and assimilated. Meanwhile Kax scientists begin to become aware of dangers associated with over-use of discrete intelligences and start to warn those parts of Kax society which retain independent thought (too late it turns out). However, before the Kax leadership can stem the tide, the various discrete intelligences begin to “leak”, and eventually coalesce into a single entity. This is the Hive Mind. It has true intelligence, but at the same time lacks thought. It is cunning but not smart. Its only goals are based on the instructions it was given through its various components before it became one. It exists to continue, to expand and to thrive. The remaining intelligent Kax are taken and assimilated, enslaved to the will of the Hive Mind.
Epilogue. The Hive Mind absorbs the remnant life in its galaxy and concludes that it must move on or perish. It leaves its galaxy en masse. Pause again as it goes into hibernation and then resume with its arrival at Tyran.
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Post by gman25639 on Sept 27, 2013 5:10:13 GMT
My god... that is shear genius. That good be a whole book if you wrote it out!
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Post by chuckles on Sept 27, 2013 9:20:47 GMT
My god... that is shear genius. That good be a whole book if you wrote it out! Cheers. Black Library run writing competitions every so often, I might have a crack at writing this up and submitting it. I'm a fair bit older and wiser now than I was then so it feels like it might actually happen... if I can shake off this thrice-cursed writer's block that keeps striking me when I try and do these things. NaNoWriMo first though. Looking back at this idea I'm struck by the parallels with the Fall of the Eldar. The difference being that the Eldar fiddled while Rome burned, ignoring the imminent threat their actions were creating as they were distracted by cults of pleasure. In this story the Kax actively (and accidentally) engineer their own demise through a combination of scientific curiosity, lack of restraint and external pressure. The problem with turning this idea into a book is that there's no continuity other than with the race themselves. It would make a great bit of fluff from the Tyranid Codex but to make it into an actual book you'd have to either embrace a non-standard and somewhat odd story structure (which admittedly might be appropriate to captivate the truly alien nature of the Tyranids) or zero in on the final part and have the preceding sections buried in there as backstory. Hmmm. On balance I think it would work better as a short story than a full length one. Which is good, cause I need the writing practice for NaNo. I'll get cracking.
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Post by gman25639 on Sept 28, 2013 3:36:20 GMT
What if you got a group of people together and wrote it as a group? Cough *me* cough. Each person writes a chapter or something?
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