Question about power of the machine spirit

[kenji10000]

I recently had a game against a space marines player who wanted to use Power of the machine spirit to fire the same gun twice in the same shooting phase. I didn't think this was allowed but he argued since his raider didn't move he could fire all weapons and the additional weapon meant he could fire the same one again. The other people said he was allowed to because it says so in the codex. I don't know all the wordings of the codex, so they sided with him and said if i have hard evidence from GW or something then they admit I'm right. Have you guys had this problem before? Or am I wrong?

[zephoid]

it says in Pomts that you may fire another weapon you have not fired this turn at another target. you cannot fire it twice in the same round.

[kenji10000]

Is that the wording in the codex? They want "evidence not opinion"

[Jabberwocky]

Ask to read their codex next time. I've had people cheat dozens of times. I let blight grenades reduce me to I1 for 2 games before I got annoyed enough to check!

[cicadapestis]

I just checked the wording in the Black Templar codex

Power of the machine spirit:
A machine spirit is a combination of organic and mechanical components that helps control a tank's movement and weapon systems. If the tank suffers a crew stunned result on the vehicule damage tables, the machine spirit allows the tank to move directly ahead up to its maximum speed. Also, the machine spirit can operate one weapon per turn as long as the vehicle has moved no more than 6", even if the tank suffers a crew shaken or crew stunned result. This is in addition to any weaponry that can normally fire. The machine spirit had a BS of 2.

I have no idea if this was mentioned in a faq or if this is different for normal space marines

[kenji10000]

thats from the old codex i believe. the new one functions differently

[bobmakenzie]

"The vehicle may fire one more weapon then is normally permitted"

Its not saying the Raider can fire a whole weapon again its just that you are allowed one more. I believe this is also FAQed.

here is an informative thread in the B&C Official Rules forum about this topic.

Edit: Sorry Wrong thread.

www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=163840&hl=PoTMS

(I just figured asking space marine players was probably a better way to get the answer)

[Devil's Advocate]

here's the answer from the FAQ in it's entirety.

The vehicle can fire one more weapon than
would normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can
be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons,
subject to the normal rules for shooting. Therefore, a
vehicle that has moved at combat speed can fire two
weapons, and a vehicle that has either moved at cruising
speed, or has suffered a ʻCrew Stunnedʼ or ʻCrew Shakenʼ
result can fire a single weapon.

It gives permission to fire an additional weapon that would not otherwise be fired; not permission to fire a weapon again. What he's doing is illegal.

[kenji10000]

I knew it! it seemed too insane, he was running the achilles and wanted to fire the thunder fire cannon twice per turn. I still beat him pretty bad, Zoans ended the dispute with a single lance

[Devil's Advocate]

haha. the achilles is a apocalypse unit. Ordnance weapons can be fired if no other weapons on the vehicle are fired... Power of the Machine Spirit would allow one other weapon to fire.

[kenji10000]

Wow so he was cheating twice? He had like a printed page with all the stats and stuff and said it was GW approved O.o

[xenofox]

Mar 29, 2011 20:05:57 GMT kenji10000 said:

Wow so he was cheating twice? He had like a printed page with all the stats and stuff and said it was GW approved O.o

If its not in the codex dont let them use it, unless they ask you for permission. And always check he rules of said unit before you give a thumbs up

It is pretty sad though did you check his total points worked out he may have cheated there aswell... Still you won agasint a cheater well done

[kenji10000]

Mar 29, 2011 20:38:18 GMT xenofox said:

Mar 29, 2011 20:05:57 GMT kenji10000 said:

Wow so he was cheating twice? He had like a printed page with all the stats and stuff and said it was GW approved O.o

If its not in the codex dont let them use it, unless they ask you for permission. And always check he rules of said unit before you give a thumbs up

It is pretty sad though did you check his total points worked out he may have cheated there aswell... Still you won agasint a cheater well done

thanks! and no i didnt check his points, it didnt even occur to me that playing him would be an issue until this dispute came up. He used it on turn one then i destroyed his raider turn 2 so he could not argue it anymore ^_^

[Devil's Advocate]

Yeah, it really comes down to how he characterized it, and what the friendly-level of the game you were playing was.

the Achilles, being an apocalypse unit, was made by GW staff and the datasheet posted to their website - as an apocalypse datasheet. it's generally understood that those units are designed for apocalypse games. In serious competition, they are generally banned, since most competitions are "codex armies only". in more friendly games, anything goes, as long as your opponent approves it.

it's rare that people approve apoc units for general games - but I've seen it happen. can make for an interesting, if unbalanced, game.

The fact that he was trying to use PotMS to fire the Ordnance weapon twice tells me he's likely an inexperienced player, and thus ignorant of the finer details. I imagine he found the datasheet, didn't fully understand what it's for, printed it out, and made one. It's also possible he wasn't aware of the FAQ updating his codex.

point here is, don't jump to the conclusion that he was cheating, he may have simply been ignorant of what those are for.

[kenji10000]

ok will do, thank you