The New Chaos Codex is Here

[coredump]

But that is common. ST for a stealer costs different than for a fex, etc. Bikers are more valuable, thus making them better usually costs more.

[lowlygaunt]

I think you missed the point of my argument Coredump by only looking at the one cost I put up, I used the bikers as an example, but my real point wasn't that it costs "too' much for a biker to get it. It was that buying more bikers lowers the cost, to me the concept that adding more members to a unit lowers the cost of their add ons is very silly. And this is what the system is about. Imagine if the Tyranid codex said "rending claws for genestealers costs 40 points per unit" or even "rending claws cost genestealers 4 points each, unless you have more than 8 genestealers, then they only cost 3 points each. It is completely silly, well to me.
Actualy I think +1T should be about 10 points for a biker, but 16.6 points is a bit much in my opinion. So to get a "reasonable" cost for the +1 toughness, I have to buy a unit of 5, and to get a "broken" (in my opinion) cost of 5 points per biker I can buy 10.
So, using your logic that it costs more for a more valuable unit, explain to me how in reality if I buy 10 bikers, the mark costs less per model than it did for a unit of 7 regular marines? By their system what you said is no longer true! it does not cost more for a more valuable unit! Sure the bikers at base cost more per, but that is irrelevant, we are only talking about the cost of the Mark.
To me this completely destroys the balancing point of giving abilities, ad ons etc a point value, since the balancing nature of comparing models and points per model is destroyed by unit size.
So, say 10 marines (squad A) vs 10 marines with +1 T (squadB). In a normal round of shooting they each shoot and would hit 6.3 times. Squad A would only cause 2.1 wounds, squad B causes 3.2 wounds. meaning in this case the +1 toughness was roughlt worth one more marine or so. You could say then that the balancinf factor should be that it cost squad B the cost of a marine (15 points, or 3 points per) to get the toughness. but this is moot the way it is bought, because they are no longer charging 3 points per marine. instead at 10 marines I am "losing" points, and at 20 marines I am "making" up points. Why change the system and complicate this whole concept? Now as to my bikers, it is generaly a balance point in GW games that the extra movement of a bike is worth 2.5 times the cost of a regular trooper, using the cost of a biker. So +1 toughness should cost maybe 2.5 times, or somehwere around 8 points. So as to bikers this becomes hugely exxagerated, since at 3 bikers I am paying 16.6 points per +1 toughness, and "losing" points.
I just cannot see anypurpose they served by changing this wording. Was it really that hard for all the new players to simply add +5 points to each model in their unit? I cannot find a single good argument for the change anywhere.

I of course realise the concept of a "reasonable" cost and balance between units is purely subjective of course, and far more complicated than any of these examples, but hopefully this time my rant is clear.

[coredump]

Hmmm... I thought you had two points. One (earlier) that increasing the size of the unit makes the mark 'cheaper',(5 marines vs. 10 marines), and two being that it penalizes models that tend to be taken in smaller units. (bikes vs. marines)
I was responding to the second point.
If I misunderstood, I apologize. But I will now respond to the first point.


Because often times, a smaller unit is more 'valuable'

Consider marines.
You can have a 5 man Las/Plas squad
Or you can have a 10 man Las/Plas squad

The 5 man unit is a 'better' unit, because it is more point efficient for the goal of getting a Lascannon and Plasma gun on the table. Thus to make that better unit even 'more better', costs more (per unit)
By making the cost per unit, it encourages full squads, instead of the more min/maxing.

There is other wargear out there that effects the entire unit, the larger the unit the more 'benefit' you get.

Heck, I run 33 stealers. Right now 6 of the infiltrate. If I put more in that brood, more get to infiltrate, for the same price.

A drop pod costs the same, regardless of how many models are in it. Same for a rhino, etc. An Icon is a piece of wargear, it has an effect on the unit, it encourages not min-maxing the unit.

Now, it does have a discouraging affect on the 'fluff numbers', and that is regrettable. But I think they are moving away from that fluff at this point.

[yoritomo]

I strangely agree with the new Icon method.

I see a lot of min/maxing going on. What the new chaos icons do is reward you for not trying to min/max you squads. Sure, you can still min/max your squads, but now you're giving up some thing to do it (a better cost for you mark).

This is some out of the box thinking by GW. I applaud their efforts.

[lowlygaunt]

Hmmm, good points Coredump, that does make sense to me.
Same with your comment Yori, that is true, buying large squads is getting away from the effeciency concept, sadly at the idea of eliminating the fluff from previous editions.
Thanks for a different way to look at the icon system (although I still hate it). That puts a different perspective into it.

[feebianac]

Sadly I had a game to play this past Sunday. I said 'HEY I haven't played with my army yet, I going to make a list!' Well I finally sat down and scrolled through the pages of the new codex. I started to compose my Thousand Sons army. I was completely sad at what a thousand point list would look like. I have to say that the new codex has me almost turned away from Chaos. In the old codex Thousand Sons had some awesome Daemons to help fill their ranks. Now the Daemons are just a joke, no powers, no flight, nothing. The Thousand Sons came with two wounds each, a big advantage to help cover their high cost. Not to mention, I am extremely turned off by the amount of Thousand Sons you can fit into a small game. Now they are going to die just as quick as any other Chaos Legion. I know that they have AP 3 bolters, but it boils down to numbers on the ground. Any commander in their right mind looks at an almost entire slow and purposeful army and out ranges it. The Psychic powers in the Codex aren't too much to jump up and down about. Ahriman cost MORE than a Chaos Land Raider!

The Thousand Sons are going to have to dilute into weaker counter parts, and sell themselves out as lowly gang-members. Thanks GW you have stripped any sense of Legion from the Thousand Sons and you all have turn into the great wanderers of the 40K universe. So, Good-bye Thousand Sons it was fun while it lasted!

[coredump]

Wait, they get AP3 bolters *and* a 4+ invulnerable save... and you are complaining?
And the sorcerer, though expensive, gets a force weapon.

Those bolters mean they are *3X* as deadly as normal marines against MEq. That is huge.

And Ahriman is expensive, because he is a beast. He can make *3* psy tests in a turn. He can use the same power 3 times if he wants. Oh, and a force sword also...

[koran]

Yeah I wouldnt complain about Ahriman, but I would rather have two wounds than a 4+ invunerable.... I would rather have feel no pain than a 4+ invunerable as it would be more in character with the army (fluff wise).

[barbedsparky]

I disagree about preferring a FNP against a 4+ inv save for Thousand Sons, even fluffwise. Think about it, you need to be alive to feel pain in the first place. Plague Marines are alive, although bloated and toughened, therefore they feel pain and although resistant to it are not immune to its effects. The inv sv confers an otherworldly nature to them and as they are not living beings, as opposed to animated armour I think it befits them better. Sure 2 wounds is nice but these guys can potentially live through the nastiest offence that anyone can throw at them. Capricious as it may seem, this is the nature of chaos.

[koran]

But the way they were meant to be was sould trapped within their armour. In the Fluff if something like a lascannon hit them the hole in the armour would be large enough for the soul to escape out of it. When they were hit by things like bolters and lasguns there was a chance the hole created would not be big enough for their soul to escape.... Thats why they had two wounds and a lascannon would instant death them.

In my mind feel no pain represents this better as it works against the lower powered weapons but then something like a lascannon rips into them then they dont get any benifit, as their armour is totally shredded.