Genevaman, didn't mean to suggest that you were trying to lure people in with sexual titillation or what-have-you. I do believe you were only sharing it so you could sort out your feelings about it. However, I don't feel quite as confident about the guy who made the diorama in the first place, and that's who I'm directing most of my ire towards.
This has to be one of the non-evidential and insulting things I have read in a long time Maskedtyranid and I am going to call you on it. Your previous post was just as ill-thoughtout about molestating Venomthropes and assuming what we want to see.
The bit about Venomthropes was a joke, though considering I was directing everyone to 1d4chan, only barely. But mostly I was just trying to suck the pretentiousness out of the discussion with some off-color humor. I mean, think about it. Sometimes those tentacles find their way into some very uncomfortable places. And that's just the reality of war with horrible bug monsters. It's a subject we should explore, you know, for art.
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I have seen plenty of breasts in my day in the real world and am in no shortage of them.
In this kind of context?
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Firstly, you (and many others in this thread) have not seen the model (as you admitted a page ago) and have no basis to comment. Secondly, the rape is implied, it is not like there is a Imperial Guard soldier on-top of the Eldar and the rest are standing around doing other sexually explicit things. There is no actual rape in the diorama, hence why the art piece is brilliantly done.
Well, I've seen the diorama, aaaand... found the description I read earlier to be completely accurate, saw there was indeed nudity, and my opinion hasn't changed an iota. I'm not sure how it helps your argument to say that the rape hasn't happened yet beyond the piece merely depicting nudity versus being outright obscene.
As for the open-minded folks you showed this to, I'm willing to bet that at least a few of them weren't as open-minded as you thought and now have a vastly diminished opinion of the hobby and think that this sort of thing is commonplace. If I were you I wouldn't have shown this to them at all, frankly, because now they might associate it with you.
If you want a better idea of where I'm coming from, then might I suggest some viewing material? Head to thatguywiththeglasses.com, then head to Film Brain's Bad Movie Beatdowns, then look up the review for Universal Soldier: The Return. If for some reason you have some insane hatred of this website, the reviewer, or you just don't want to bother, I'll just tell you what the deal is. This movie reviewer, Film Brain, condemns the movie Universal Soldier: The Return for having a scene where a Unisol (in a nutshell, a resurrected soldier) rips a woman's shirt open to expose her bra, and Film Brain calls them out on it for just wanting an excuse to show some boobies. And no, he doesn't rape her in that scene (thank God, though I doubt FB would have shown it if that happened). It's especially nonsensical when you realize that this occurred in a training exercise. There's simply no other explanation for why they had that scene in there. And remember the tree rape scene in Evil Dead? I can't remember where I read this, but the director, Sam Raimi, literally just wanted to have some nudity in the film (because you have to have that in a horror film at some point) and basically told the actress involved that the "trees are going to get a little friendly with you" or something like that. So what's the defense for that? If you want nudity in your movie why use rape as a vehicle for it?
So there you have it. The diorama's just sexploitation in my opinion, and if we could learn anything from this it would only be something really simple and obvious like, "Rape is bad" or "Rape happens in war sometimes" which we didn't really need communicated to us via an arrangement of plastic miniatures. If sexploitation really wasn't the creator's intention, then he should not have depicted any nudity at all so there would be no chance of sending mixed signals, drawing the wrong sort of crowd, or leading me to write lengthy rants on the matter.
(Edit: Considering Yori's sensitivity to the incident that started this whole thing, I realized that I may have erred in posting the direct link to the Universal Soldier review and removed it. It's nowhere near as graphic but falls along the same lines. My bad?)
« Last Edit: Apr 22, 2012, 5:41am by maskedtyranid »
There is more than one example of rape being pictured in classic paintings or statues. If you do a cubist-impression of a rape scene, people will say "oh wow it's something new" etc.
I don't quite see how this is such a controversial thing - would it have been better if the "bad guys" would have done it? i.e. Chaos Marines or Dark Eldar? I recon the discussion would then be a bit different. Would it have been better if he used any other kind of toy soldiers rather than warhammer ones? again - I think then the discussion would be a bit more relaxed.
I think the real problem here is that it's picturing the supposedly good guys (as we tend to rather identify ourselves with the humans) are doing something very very nasty on the even-better-guys (come on elves are always really nice people), using "OUR" models.
And btw: I have yet to hear of a real-life encounter of tentacle-rape (as for the venomthrope thing)
I honestly feel this thread lacks any direction of discussion and certainly has not centred around what Devils Advocate intended. I feel it's main purpose would have been better served through private discussion if anything.
That said, before I check out in it I just want to add, for whatever little it is worth, that I certainly don't think any less of people who defend this piece on an artistic level. I do however feel Yori was right to remove it, even if his comments when locking the thread were inappropriate. That's all.
I don't quite see how this is such a controversial thing - would it have been better if the "bad guys" would have done it? i.e. Chaos Marines or Dark Eldar? I recon the discussion would then be a bit different.
Maybe slightly different--it might not have offended Yoritomo so much because it's so easy to draw parallels between the Imperial Guard and real life soldiers. And we could say "Well, we expect that from THOSE guys" but it's still offensive and ill-advised all the same. However you spin it, the diorama is what it is, sexploitation.
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Would it have been better if he used any other kind of toy soldiers rather than warhammer ones? again - I think then the discussion would be a bit more relaxed.
More likely no one would have cared (except for the people who play that game).
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And btw: I have yet to hear of a real-life encounter of tentacle-rape (as for the venomthrope thing)
That was... more off-color humor, and also an attempt to demonstrate the absurdity of the pro-rape-art argument. My point was, "Just because this might happen in this particular universe doesn't mean we'd want to see that, nor do we really need to dwell on it terribly much." Whether or not it happens in reality is completely besides the point (Eldar aren't real either, you know).
However you spin it, the diorama is what it is, sexploitation.
I'd call it more of a social commentary showing that in war there is more ugly things that can occur then just killing. Hell one of the comments on that site was "Dioramas should show only heroics in war so that children think it's cool"/paraphrase. I think that this work is showing exactly things people should know.
In regards to the topic it's contents does violate the ToS and thus it's removal was warranted but Yori should have refrained from expressing his personal viewpoints in such a manner.
Sure, it's a nice piece. It was painted well. It may have been done in good conciousness to show the brutality of Warhammer, but rape is still rape.
Warhammer shows graphic scenes (In codexes and such) of violence, pillaging, murder etc. but rape is on a whole other level and should never be reproduced like that.
I know someone who has been raped and it literally destroyed her life, to the point where she was contemplating killing herself. That is why it is so much worse than murder, which is bad in itself. Murder is one bad thing, then it is over. Rape has lifetime affecting consequences for both parties.
The one thing I will give the model is it shows the sheer brutality that humankind has.
I don't quite see how this is such a controversial thing - would it have been better if the "bad guys" would have done it? i.e. Chaos Marines or Dark Eldar?.
Funnily enough, I would probably be on the other side of the argument if that were the case. The diorama drew from the human element. It wasn't about how brutal the Imperial Guard are, or that this is what Guardsmen do to their prisoners like it would be were they replaced by the more stereotypical Dark Eldar. To me that's just displaying the rape as something artificial using it merely as a tool to make the 'bad guys' more threatening.
It's the fact that it is the human side that makes it so powerful. It shows us that, in the heat of conflict and the turmoil of war, even some of the good guys can succumb to things base and despicable. It's a mirror for what we're capable of. In many ways it reminded me of the film Platoon with has a similar theme throughout.
I respectfully disagree with those who claim that this thread should be locked/ignored, or that rape is worse than murder. I'm also bothered by the fact that a diorama featuring terrified guardsmen being eviscerated by a lictor would have garnered praise, while a masterfully depicted diorama that even implies rape is shunned and locked. I don't fault Yori (I suppose he was just doing his job), but I urge this forum to reconsider the bizarre social constructs that would censor art under the hypocritical pretense that it's inappropriate (unlike mass murder).
At its core, killing is more acceptable than rape because it's more entertaining. Modern movies/games, ancient gladiatorial matches, and society's glorification of war are all evidence of this. Plenty of folks want to watch people die, but only the disturbed minority want to watch a woman get violated.
i've not even seen it but i'm disturbed. i don't know whats more wrong. that some1 would want to show something like that or that anyone would complain that anybody would disagree with it. its just wrong. and even if it wasn't if the moderator's don't want it on their forum then i say its their choice. and if it was my choice i would ban all who had anything to do with it or complianed about the moderators reaction. ITS WRONG.
You haven't taken the time to read any of the threads have you? Not the original one nor this one...
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I've not even seen it but I'm disturbed.
How the hell does that make sense?
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i don't know whats more wrong. that some1 would want to show something like that
Show what? oh... The diorama of which you haven't seen?
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or that anyone would complain that anybody would disagree with it.
Disagree with what?
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and even if it wasn't if the moderator's don't want it on their forum then i say its their choice.
I can't see anyone arguing that it was not Yoris choice to make. Actually, what I see is people saying that it was okay that Yori took a choice. There is few arguments for if the content really were in conflict with any rules. This is a forum after all and some of us likes to participate in debates. Which leads me to the next.
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and if it was my choice i would ban all who had anything to do with it
Baning a member who wanted to have an intelligent debate about a diorama? If you had read the original thread you would have seen that it were not posted by someone saying: "oh look everyone! An Eldar is being raped on this Diorama! How funny!" Had you read the thread, you would have seen this: Quote:
I was a bit in two minds as to whether or not I should post it here. The image technically doesn't directly break any of the forum rules but its implications are extreme to say the least. For the sake of the argument at hand I've decided to link it rather than post a direct image. Just be warned, its pretty harsh in content. If any of the mods deem it too inappropriate you have my apologies in advance and should, of course, feel free to delete it.
Would you Ban a member for doing that? Then Jeeeeeeeeee' I'm glad you are not a moderator! I don't know if you know...but we like to debate, discuss and analyze on this forum. The Diorama were representing a situation in a certain setting, not very much different than had you went to a museum and looked at paintings there. Also you are saying this? Quote:
or complianed about the moderators reaction.
What? So you also think people should get banned from complaining about getting this thrown in their face? Quote:
This is what you think war is, people raping each other once the bullets stop flying? Do you really think that the Soldiers who defend you are no better than the criminals that roam the streets? People who are so selfless that they would give their lives to protect you are no better than the lowest criminal in your mind.
But obviously, you haven't read this thread nor the original one, so you couldn't possibly understand why a comment like that makes me mad. Also, allow me to quote Genevaman. Quote:
I also feel the need to point out that the diorama was implicit not graphic, and that the actual nudity seems to have been exaggerated here. The rape was not actually happening in the diorama. It merely implied the intentions of the Guardsmen strongly.
Of course you would have known all this, captainbirdbum... If you had actually seen the picture.
Please, captainbirdbum... For the sake of my future mood. Free me from such ignorant valueless comments. We do want to hear your opinion, but you really need to base your opinion on something first. You can't tell people how you've experienced a movie if you've never seen it... can you?
Lastly I have a comment for Maskedtyranid's comment.
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You're not going to get your miniature porn on this forum with some clever argument.
Grow up... Just... Grow up. This is The Tyranid Hive. If we wanted to see porn do you really think this is the site we would go to? Get real kid. I don't think I need to say more to you. I think Illithid did that good enough.
I also feel like saying sorry for this angry post. I would have left this thread as is... But comments like these honestly pissed me off.
There is more than one example of rape being pictured in classic paintings or statues. If you do a cubist-impression of a rape scene, people will say "oh wow it's something new" etc.
I don't quite see how this is such a controversial thing - would it have been better if the "bad guys" would have done it? i.e. Chaos Marines or Dark Eldar? I recon the discussion would then be a bit different. Would it have been better if he used any other kind of toy soldiers rather than warhammer ones? again - I think then the discussion would be a bit more relaxed.
I think the real problem here is that it's picturing the supposedly good guys (as we tend to rather identify ourselves with the humans) are doing something very very nasty on the even-better-guys (come on elves are always really nice people), using "OUR" models.
And btw: I have yet to hear of a real-life encounter of tentacle-rape (as for the venomthrope thing)
I don't care who is doing what in the model. Doesn't matter what faction is about to rape whatever other faction, it doesn't change what is pictured as happening. Rape is rape and it doesn't belong here
There is more than one example of rape being pictured in classic paintings or statues. If you do a cubist-impression of a rape scene, people will say "oh wow it's something new" etc.
I don't quite see how this is such a controversial thing - would it have been better if the "bad guys" would have done it? i.e. Chaos Marines or Dark Eldar? I recon the discussion would then be a bit different. Would it have been better if he used any other kind of toy soldiers rather than warhammer ones? again - I think then the discussion would be a bit more relaxed.
I think the real problem here is that it's picturing the supposedly good guys (as we tend to rather identify ourselves with the humans) are doing something very very nasty on the even-better-guys (come on elves are always really nice people), using "OUR" models.
And btw: I have yet to hear of a real-life encounter of tentacle-rape (as for the venomthrope thing)
1. Art can be controversial, yes. But art isn't generally marketed at young people. Alot of 40k players are underage, and seeing that, no matter how much they have already seen/know, is wrong, in a game like this.
2. It doesn't matter who had done it. If it had been a DE raping a human, it would be the same since they look human. Hell, even a Daemon would be wrong.
3. From what I have seen and heard about, we are the bad guys. We do terrible things to each other, rape is one.
4. Why even joke on a sensible debate thread on such a sensitive topic. As I already said, I know someone who was raped. So does Yori. It saddens me to think that something so terrible could be taken so lightly in what is, in essence, a light-hearted children's game.
If that scene was in DoW, I can guarantee that there would have been outrage from many people. Why should this be any different.
I'll say it again, it truly shows how brutal humanity can be, both the subjects and the diorama itself.
Someone made a topic that included rape in war, and pictures of such?
Yori Locked it
We are now discussing the appropriateness of said topic on a proboard forum?
I do not know enough about this topic to comment on it directly, considering I have not been as active as i once was... I am just asking if i am correct in this assumption.
If my assumption is correct, the words Proboard Forum should be a sufficient argument.
Overreact much, Yori? « Reply #59 on Apr 23, 2012, 6:55pm via the ProBoards Mobile App »
This topic started mostly because someone took offense to the comments made by Yori when he closed the other thread. It's kind of evolved into other topics from the OP because everyone is taking Everyone's comments personally. Which is why it's isn't such a great topic for here, it's too touchy of a subject in some ways. People are reading way too much into it and nit picking each others posts to pieces.
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