The Tyranid Hive

tamastar63
Gaunt

member is offline

Joined: Jul 2012
Gender: Male

Posts: 18

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #15 on Jul 26, 2012, 6:16am »

Yeah,... That was,..... Awesome

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

wisdomseyes1
Hive Tyrant

member is offline

[avatar]

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.

Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male

Posts: 5,622
Location: Los Angelas, California, USA

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #16 on Jul 26, 2012, 7:02am »

Jul 26, 2012, 2:39am, tamastar63 wrote:

Mawloc's don't "Mishap" anyway, so when scattering, if you hit the building (as it is impassable terrain) you just reduce the scatter by the minimum distance as needed to not mishap. Oh and Terror from the deep should not be able to effect Flyers either that could be a gliche in the wording of the rules, but it's quite rediculous to play it that way seeing as TFtD is meant to effect things on the ground (as it is coming from underground). Trying to include flyers would be quite the douchebag move!

Cite the rule that says mawlocs reduce scatter.

Can't find it? Because it doesnt exist. Mawlocs DO mishap, and there rules describe exactly how they mishap.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

"All I am after is a life full of laughter"

Normal. Normal can never be amazing. Normal can never be outstanding. Normal can't be interesting, unique, extraordinary, or fun.

When you look at ordinary, when you look at normal, you never give it a second thought. Never more than a passing glance.

Who would ever want to be normal? Invisible. Another drop of rain.

N.I.B.
Hive Tyrant

member is offline

[avatar]

Joined: Oct 2008
Gender: Male

Posts: 2,915

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #17 on Jul 26, 2012, 11:08am »

Just when you thought Mawlocs couldn't get any worse, players are enabled to bring their own impassable terrain to camp around in.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

stormbreed
Gaunt

member is offline

Joined: Jul 2012
Gender: Male

Posts: 25

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #18 on Jul 26, 2012, 11:54am »

Jul 26, 2012, 7:02am, wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Jul 26, 2012, 2:39am, tamastar63 wrote:

Mawloc's don't "Mishap" anyway, so when scattering, if you hit the building (as it is impassable terrain) you just reduce the scatter by the minimum distance as needed to not mishap. Oh and Terror from the deep should not be able to effect Flyers either that could be a gliche in the wording of the rules, but it's quite rediculous to play it that way seeing as TFtD is meant to effect things on the ground (as it is coming from underground). Trying to include flyers would be quite the douchebag move!

Cite the rule that says mawlocs reduce scatter.

Can't find it? Because it doesnt exist. Mawlocs DO mishap, and there rules describe exactly how they mishap.

There is none, however it does make Pheromone Trail very fun

Has it been explained why TFtD doesn't hit the fliers or everything in runes on different levels? We're just using it as a "Shooting" attack? raw I can see it going the other way, but logically it is "in the air"

Thanks
Dan

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

nurglitch
Hive Tyrant

member is offline

Joined: Jan 2012
Gender: Male

Posts: 1,439

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #19 on Jul 26, 2012, 1:44pm »

Trygons have the rule for reducing scatter: Subterreanean Assault.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

bugsfromessex
Gaunt

member is offline

Joined: Jul 2012
Gender: Male

Posts: 16

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #20 on Jul 26, 2012, 2:50pm »

Ive just been speaking to a fellow bug player and we came up with this idea what do you lot think of it?
Short answer: fortifaction Destroyed...

Long answer: They are treated like an immobile vehicle, and so take 1 S6 hit but this is moot as the building cannot be moved out the way and so is destroyed.
As for anyone inside I would say use "6" on the building damage table. So Total callapse 2D6, S6 hits, ignore cover, Emergency disembarkation. Treat it as difficult terrain otherwise your Mawloc will be in impassable terrain!

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

nurglitch
Hive Tyrant

member is offline

Joined: Jan 2012
Gender: Male

Posts: 1,439

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #21 on Jul 26, 2012, 2:59pm »

How is that supported by the rules?

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

gloomfang
Hive Tyrant

Harshes on Coredump's mellow
member is offline

[avatar]

Joined: Jul 2009
Gender: Male

Posts: 662
Location: Memphis

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #22 on Jul 26, 2012, 3:00pm »

Jul 26, 2012, 11:54am, stormbreed wrote:

Has it been explained why TFtD doesn't hit the fliers or everything in runes on different levels? We're just using it as a "Shooting" attack? raw I can see it going the other way, but logically it is "in the air"

I haven't been able to show why they can't hit flyers. Here is an explenation for why it can't hit everything in Ruins that I posted to Dakka.

" know it says blast marker. Being a blast marker has nothing to do with being a shooting attack. Spore mines use blast markers to when they explode and that is not a shooting attack. No one seems to think that a collomn of flame erupts from the ground to the sky incinerating all in its path with a spore mine so why should it for a mawloc. It is a model that is replaced by a marker instead of a marker that is replaced by model.

So that passage you cite: "Place a large blast marker over the spot... Every unit under the template suffers..."

So what is a large blast marker (pg6) . Here is the part that agrees with the codex. "A unit takes a hit for every model..."

Ok. So what happens when you use a blast marker in a ruin? (pg100).
"declare the floor you are aiming at... Wounds can only be allocated to the models on the stated level."

So that's cool, I can choose any level right? and I can put the mawloc on any level I choose because I replace the marker with the model at the end.

Except for pg98. Moving within ruins.
"Only Beasts, infantry, jetbikes, skimmers and all types of jump and jet pack units can move on the upper levels of a ruin..." So MCs can't be placed on the upper levels.

That leaves you with the only valid location to place the blast marker that the mawloc will replace on the base level.

But if you still want to let me have that column of S4 flame from my spore mines I am totally cool with that."

The spore mine question has still been unanswered.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

coredump
Influence of the Hive Mind

member is offline

Joined: Jul 2006
Gender: Male

Posts: 9,367
Location: New York, USA

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #23 on Jul 26, 2012, 4:44pm »

Jul 26, 2012, 2:50pm, bugsfromessex wrote:

Ive just been speaking to a fellow bug player and we came up with this idea what do you lot think of it?
Short answer: fortifaction Destroyed...

Long answer: They are treated like an immobile vehicle, and so take 1 S6 hit but this is moot as the building cannot be moved out the way and so is destroyed.
As for anyone inside I would say use "6" on the building damage table. So Total callapse 2D6, S6 hits, ignore cover, Emergency disembarkation. Treat it as difficult terrain otherwise your Mawloc will be in impassable terrain!

Jul 26, 2012, 2:59pm, nurglitch wrote:

How is that supported by the rules?

Pretty easily.

If the bastion is a "model" (which is not a foregone conclusion, but pretty reasonable), then the TftD rules say that it will be destroyed.
Looking at the Building Damage Table, results of 6 or 7 lead to a destroyed Building, and give results from that. Using the 6 seems reasonable.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

Aux:"Listen to Westrider like he's the Bible."
Westrider: "That's not actually a bad comparison. I'm fallible, subject to human limitation, and often require interpretation

"

Jordan's choice:
"So i have looked at every army out there but this is the only one with a carnifex so im picking it"

Yori:Plastic gargoyles? Sorry, but the current world crisis is global warming, not hell freezing over.

rehkal
Tyrant Guard

member is offline

Joined: Feb 2010
Gender: Male

Posts: 417

Mawlocs
« Reply #24 on Jul 26, 2012, 7:10pm via the ProBoards Mobile App »

Jul 26, 2012, 3:00pm, gloomfang wrote:

Jul 26, 2012, 11:54am, stormbreed wrote:

Has it been explained why TFtD doesn't hit the fliers or everything in runes on different levels? We're just using it as a "Shooting" attack? raw I can see it going the other way, but logically it is "in the air"

I haven't been able to show why they can't hit flyers. Here is an explenation for why it can't hit everything in Ruins that I posted to Dakka.

" know it says blast marker. Being a blast marker has nothing to do with being a shooting attack. Spore mines use blast markers to when they explode and that is not a shooting attack. No one seems to think that a collomn of flame erupts from the ground to the sky incinerating all in its path with a spore mine so why should it for a mawloc. It is a model that is replaced by a marker instead of a marker that is replaced by model.

So that passage you cite: "Place a large blast marker over the spot... Every unit under the template suffers..."

So what is a large blast marker (pg6) . Here is the part that agrees with the codex. "A unit takes a hit for every model..."

Ok. So what happens when you use a blast marker in a ruin? (pg100).
"declare the floor you are aiming at... Wounds can only be allocated to the models on the stated level."

So that's cool, I can choose any level right? and I can put the mawloc on any level I choose because I replace the marker with the model at the end.

Except for pg98. Moving within ruins.
"Only Beasts, infantry, jetbikes, skimmers and all types of jump and jet pack units can move on the upper levels of a ruin..." So MCs can't be placed on the upper levels.

That leaves you with the only valid location to place the blast marker that the mawloc will replace on the base level.

But if you still want to let me have that column of S4 flame from my spore mines I am totally cool with that."

The spore mine question has still been unanswered.

Got an even better reason for mawloc to only affect base floor of ruins. Units may only deepstrike onto the base floor of ruins, not the 2nd or 3rd floors. I believe they can be deep struck onto battlements though, more risky though because if they don't fit... They mishap.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

gloomfang
Hive Tyrant

Harshes on Coredump's mellow
member is offline

[avatar]

Joined: Jul 2009
Gender: Male

Posts: 662
Location: Memphis

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #25 on Jul 26, 2012, 8:09pm »

Jul 26, 2012, 4:44pm, coredump wrote:

If the bastion is a "model" (which is not a foregone conclusion, but pretty reasonable), then the TftD rules say that it will be destroyed.
Looking at the Building Damage Table, results of 6 or 7 lead to a destroyed Building, and give results from that. Using the 6 seems reasonable.

The problem with that comes from the answer you gave me last night on the whole "Do Fortifications count as being on the board for reserves."

Your answer was:

Quote:

Fortifications are not your units. they are terrain and count towards the terrain limits on the board.

So if Fortifications are terrain and buildings are defined as Impassable Terrain in the terrain section then the mawloc mishaps.

Unless I misunderstood your comment earlier.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

wisdomseyes1
Hive Tyrant

member is offline

[avatar]

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.

Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male

Posts: 5,622
Location: Los Angelas, California, USA

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #26 on Jul 26, 2012, 8:11pm »

Jul 26, 2012, 3:00pm, gloomfang wrote:

Jul 26, 2012, 11:54am, stormbreed wrote:

Has it been explained why TFtD doesn't hit the fliers or everything in runes on different levels? We're just using it as a "Shooting" attack? raw I can see it going the other way, but logically it is "in the air"

I haven't been able to show why they can't hit flyers. Here is an explenation for why it can't hit everything in Ruins that I posted to Dakka.

" know it says blast marker. Being a blast marker has nothing to do with being a shooting attack. Spore mines use blast markers to when they explode and that is not a shooting attack. No one seems to think that a collomn of flame erupts from the ground to the sky incinerating all in its path with a spore mine so why should it for a mawloc. It is a model that is replaced by a marker instead of a marker that is replaced by model.

So that passage you cite: "Place a large blast marker over the spot... Every unit under the template suffers..."

So what is a large blast marker (pg6) . Here is the part that agrees with the codex. "A unit takes a hit for every model..."

Ok. So what happens when you use a blast marker in a ruin? (pg100).
"declare the floor you are aiming at... Wounds can only be allocated to the models on the stated level."

So that's cool, I can choose any level right? and I can put the mawloc on any level I choose because I replace the marker with the model at the end.

Except for pg98. Moving within ruins.
"Only Beasts, infantry, jetbikes, skimmers and all types of jump and jet pack units can move on the upper levels of a ruin..." So MCs can't be placed on the upper levels.

That leaves you with the only valid location to place the blast marker that the mawloc will replace on the base level.

But if you still want to let me have that column of S4 flame from my spore mines I am totally cool with that."

The spore mine question has still been unanswered.

You might want to read "deep strike" first.

This may have changed, but deepstrikers and multi-level buildings, deepstrikers always deepstrikers on the bottom floor.

Mawlocs mishap rules are pretty clear it needs to mishap an places it over the models it mishaps on.

As for the discussion on weather it hits fliers without issues, fliers say blasts can't be fired at them. This is treated as a blast, but is in no means a blast weapon. It isn't "fired", it is a procedure followed when a mishap occures.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

"All I am after is a life full of laughter"

Normal. Normal can never be amazing. Normal can never be outstanding. Normal can't be interesting, unique, extraordinary, or fun.

When you look at ordinary, when you look at normal, you never give it a second thought. Never more than a passing glance.

Who would ever want to be normal? Invisible. Another drop of rain.

gloomfang
Hive Tyrant

Harshes on Coredump's mellow
member is offline

[avatar]

Joined: Jul 2009
Gender: Male

Posts: 662
Location: Memphis

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #27 on Jul 26, 2012, 8:41pm »

Jul 26, 2012, 8:11pm, wisdomseyes1 wrote:

This may have changed, but deepstrikers and multi-level buildings, deepstrikers always deepstrikers on the bottom floor.

Mawlocs mishap rules are pretty clear it needs to mishap an places it over the models it mishaps on.

As for the discussion on weather it hits fliers without issues, fliers say blasts can't be fired at them. This is treated as a blast, but is in no means a blast weapon. It isn't "fired", it is a procedure followed when a mishap occures.

This is the crux of the stupid mawloc debate is this:

That Terror from the Deep is not a shooting attack. That means that the fact it uses a blast marker doesn't matter as the rules only state shooting attacks. You target a point on the table, not a unit. You scatter and place a template over the spot. Anything under the template is hit.

Now the issue is that they never say how far up you can place the template. If they said "the hight of the model" that would solve all the issues. However as the rules stand now you hold the template as high off the table as you want to cover up any models in a collumn that goes from the table to the ceiling.

That is why per RAW it is possible to hit flyers.

The question on ruins is similar. People say that as it is not a shooting attack that you do not have to target a level. The mawloc comes up and then that table to ceiling collumn hits everything on the other levels. No one is saying that you can place the mawloc anywhere but the ground level, I was using it as a strawman.

In theory spore mines also have this table to ceiling collumn as they also have similar rules.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

wisdomseyes1
Hive Tyrant

member is offline

[avatar]

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.

Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male

Posts: 5,622
Location: Los Angelas, California, USA

Re: Mawlocs
« Reply #28 on Jul 27, 2012, 3:42am »

Quote:

The question on ruins is similar. People say that as it is not a shooting attack that you do not have to target a level. The mawloc comes up and then that table to ceiling collumn hits everything on the other levels. No one is saying that you can place the mawloc anywhere but the ground level, I was using it as a strawman.

Your making it sound like fliers are perpetually on a second level of a ruin. Maybe I missed that part of the fliers rules... I don't remember that beig stated, rather than it being Represented (can't shoot blasts or Flamers at it, and everything is snapfired)

As I stated, in the ruins, it hits units on the ground floor and the ground floor alone because that's where it deepstrikes. It has to. Intentionally misinterpreting the word "under" when the rules for building levels as templates/ blast
Markers are pretty clear.

No one is saying that TFtD doesn't function exactly like a blast when it comes to damage resolution... They are saying it never targeted anything, they are saying it is the result of an ability that causes it to work. The argument "how high a flyer is above the ground" hold no water in a conversation where there is no rule that says how high it is (unless there is one, that I missed). All that matters is that, as it stands, it is a model that can cause a mishap for the Mawloc and it is a model than can have a blast marker placed over it (unless someone can also point out a rule tht says blasts can't scatter into fliers)

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

"All I am after is a life full of laughter"

Normal. Normal can never be amazing. Normal can never be outstanding. Normal can't be interesting, unique, extraordinary, or fun.

When you look at ordinary, when you look at normal, you never give it a second thought. Never more than a passing glance.

Who would ever want to be normal? Invisible. Another drop of rain.

rehkal
Tyrant Guard

member is offline

Joined: Feb 2010
Gender: Male

Posts: 417

Mawlocs
« Reply #29 on Jul 27, 2012, 4:54am via the ProBoards Mobile App »

Jul 27, 2012, 3:42am, wisdomseyes1 wrote:

(unless someone can also point out a rule tht says blasts can't scatter into fliers)

Page 81, left column first paragraph, last sentence.

"template, blast and large blast weapons cannot hit flyers in zoom mode."

You can target them and shoot at them all you want, but you'll only hit hit air because such weapons can't hit flyers. The rules never say you can't try to shoot them, just that you can not hit them.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged